GREAT response, Bill! THANK YOU! CRYSTAL clear.

As one who read the study carefully, followed the news from Willow on it, and whose church is now part of the study, none of this is a surprise, as this is what the study and what Willow has been saying about this all along.

I suspect that we will find out just how many people will actually be impacted in the next day or two as the comments appear on this space.

Maybe the “church police” have this crazy idea that the Bible being followed when it comes to “doing church”. 

Maybe they think that a church should not be designed around the “felt needs” of the lost.

Maybe they think that Hybels had ample time to clarify his position and wonders why the response took so long.

Maybe they think that the solution shouldnt be taking yet another survey and rolling out another book and “product” to be sold and implemented in WCA churches.

Maybe they see the effect of 32 years of seeker sensitive churches have produced. Youth are leaving the church in droves after they leave the church, biblical illiteracy, false converts, psycho-babble self help sermons, etc.

Just a few guesses though......

Sam,

I think you’ve proven the limitations of the impact this statement will have. If I may indulge myself…

[Maybe the “church police” have this crazy idea that the Bible being followed when it comes to “doing church”.]

I have visited Willow and similar churches and serve in a similar church. We follow the Bible. So does Willow. It still mystifies me that people assume they and we don’t.

[Maybe they think that a church should not be designed around the “felt needs” of the lost.] Willow is designed around the great commission, and designed around the mission to turn irreligious people into fully devoted followers of Christ. They minister to “felt needs” just like Jesus did when he fed the hungry and healed the hurting.

[Maybe they think that Hybels had ample time to clarify his position and wonders why the response took so long.] Did you read the REVEAL study? I did. There was nothing to clarify. Bill is being extra-gracious with this, a re-telling of what has already been told.

[Maybe they think that the solution shouldnt be taking yet another survey and rolling out another book and “product” to be sold and implemented in WCA churches.] I will pay good money for anything that helps me follow Jesus in my church leadership role and reach people and change lives better. It’s money well spent. And to think that prayer and seeking God was not part of this whole process is to make an assumption based on (obviously) a lack of knowledge of what really has happened with REVEAL.

[Maybe they see the effect of 32 years of seeker sensitive churches have produced. Youth are leaving the church in droves after they leave the church, biblical illiteracy, false converts, psycho-babble self help sermons, etc.] I wish you could see our seeker-sensitive church with so many youth that I’ve personally discipled who are becoming great men and women of God, people who are reading the Bible every day and learning about God more all the time, people who are true converts who are making a serious, noticeable difference for Christ in their town and in their world. We had very low attendance at one of our services in February which is my proudest “attendance” figure of the whole year… Why? Because over 10% of our church was on mission trips… at the SAME TIME! And that’s just that one week! I’ve seen the kind of Christ-followers that are part of Willow that make me very pleased to be associated with them in any way, even if only as a member of the association.

You speak of what, I suspect, you do not know, Sam.

Sam,

Can you provide me with Scripture which shows that we should criticize and condemn a church based on what we read on the internet and hear on the radio, when in fact they are churning out people who are sold out to follow Jesus?

[The church was designed to edify the believers and equip them to go out and evangelize.] That’s what Willow and churches like mine do. I’m SO sorry that you can’t see that. We were commissioned (the WHOLE church) to make disciples as we go. That’s what we are doing. Again, it mystifies that you can’t see that.

Nice pragmatic, nonresponsive, evasive answer. Where is your scriptural support for designing a church around the lost? It mystifies me that you can blatantly disregard scriptural and cling to a man centered “the ends justify the means” mentality.

I agree that we are to evangelize and make disciples but not in the context of the local church meeting together for worship.We are to go out into the world and evangelize. AND Willow Creek has admitted that it is doing a poor job at discipleship.

Peter, still cant provide me with that scriptural support? Let me know when you find it. I am interested in biblical support for your position which is far from meaningless. It is not a matter of semantics. It is a matter of being faithful to what we are biblically called to do.

I acknowledge that there are true converts within WCA churches. But there are also false converts that are deluded into believing they are saved because the church has done very little to instruct them on “working out your salvation”. Narrow is the way...not wide.

I am sorry i have taken your time away from commenting on every story that is posted here. Carry on.

Sam,

If feeling passionate enough to reach the least and the lost by sacrificing time and resources to go out of my comfort zone on a mission trip isn’t evidence of conversion fruit . . . what on earth do you use to measure fruit.  Of course lost people go on mission trips.  Lost people sit in your church every week (well, maybe your church doesn’t welcome lost people, so this may not apply to your church).  You have a lot of _____ to challenge Peter, with whom, I assume, you’ve never even had a conversation, that the people he is in relationship with and has discipled aren’t really Christians.  WAAAAY out of line.

Can you provide us with biblical support for?
• Owning a church building
• Having a choir
• A sound system
• Pews
• A monthly church newsletter
• Adult Sunday school classes

These are ridiculous questions intended to point out the ridiculousness of your positions, which of course you won’t get.  Here’s a couple of real questions?

How many WC or other SS false Christians who raised their hand, signed a card, walked an isle have you met and subsequently “converted” through your correct biblical methods and tested to prove their conversion through fruits?  If you don’t have first hand evidence of the accusations you make – you have no business making them.

Here’s another, have any of your “converts” ever fallen away from their faith?  I presume the answer is yes (unless you are more effective than Jesus)?  Ah, proof positive that you must be using unbiblical methods for church and evangelism.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but sometimes the statements by people like you sicken me, and this morning was one of those times.

Wendi

Bill did a great job in clarifying some of the reporting “mistakes” make by CT. Go Bill!

Hi Sam

I don’t know you. I disagree with most of what you have said. But I think you ask a good question…

[Can you provide me with Biblical support that the Church gathering together for worship should be designed to “attract” the lost or centered around the “felt needs” of the unchurched?]

My thoughts…

(A) 1 Cor 14:22-25
> Paul expected unbelievers to come in.
> He was willing to make some changes because they were there.

(B) I personally don’t think Willow or Saddleback necessarily consider the weekend service to be the church. I think they consider the people of God to be the church. And that their small groups and mid-week services are much more catered to them. Warren talks about the difference between a ‘CROWD’ (weekend) and a ‘CONGREGATION’ (small groups).

(C) We started our church because we wanted to have a place to invite unchurched friends. Andy Stanley says ‘Far more personal evangelism takes place if Christians have a place to invite their friends’.
We have addressed issues such as ‘don’t be yoked with unbelievers’, ‘why can’t all religions be right?’, ‘living as a missionary’. All with unbelievers present. We do not shy away from the truth. We are really hard-hitting on sin, and the need to repent, and turn to Jesus as our only hope to save us and to make us holy.

Sam,
I don’t want to be accused of misusing Scripture, but Luke 15 (Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, Lost Son) seems to indicated, especially with the Lost Sheep, that Jesus is very much more concerned with the lost rather than the found.
I’m surely not going to fault WC and Peter for leading churches who may choose to make a major effort to reach the lost. In fact, i applaud them for their ministry efforts.
Bob

My biggest problem with the “seeker sensitive” movement isn’t one of practice or doctrine really its more disillusionment.

Where the heck are all the “seekers” Rom. 3 “No one seeks after God” we have tried just about EVERYTHING to attract the local sinners to our church, no one comes, they don’t care. about the things of God or what He offers, we have shown compassion, shown God’s love reached out to our community and they still want nothing to do with God or care to darken the churches door. I am so disgusted I am ready to shout from my steeple “like Jesus,"Fill up then!” you wanna go to hell, go right ahead! Pray for me, please.

Job,

I think you raise some great thoughts/questions. I don’t agree with all of it but here is how I think we are in line.

I would be curious to know how he would answer question 1. Not that I think her has a bad answer for it, but I think I could learn from the answer.

As far as the church in Acts, I think you make to much of a leap here. We don’t have any real information about how they did things. What we have is a loose explanation. I think the PD church is based on acts 2. Fellowship (hanging out), large group Worship gatherings (apostles teaching), breaking of bread (small groups, these were meals together, not communion as we know it today), and to prayer. Outside of that, we don’t know anything else about them as it pertains to how they operated and how they changed things to do more, or even if they did. I think it is a faulty assumption.

But you are correct when you say the best way to reach someone is to love them, and that is hard if you don’t know them. I just thing that it may just be that there are people that are known that are being reached, we just don’t know it. It is a misnomer to assume that if a church is too big it does not change people effectively. Remember, the Holy Spirit is the one that does this.