It is not the pastors job to care for people, it is the pastors job to create the system by which people are cared for or to lead the poeple who are responsible to create the system. 

It is unrealistic for a person to expect the pastor to do all the care or to be personally involved with every parishioner.

JOB,

One last thing about this exchange. You and I, I suspect define discipleship differently. You might put the ability to define and explain the words justification, sanctification, and propitiation way higher on the list than I would. At the top of the list of my discipleship list is LIVING like Jesus. I’m really quite over churches filled with people who know all the stuff, but who don’t inspire any sense of awe, because nobody lives like Jesus, nobody loves beyond themselves. If must only have one, I will take the latter, as that is how people will know us.

It’s far easier, in my experience, to teach somebody who loves like Jesus more about what it means to trust and believe in Him than it is to teach someone who understands all about how to trust and believe in Him how to love like Him more.

Too many people are “educated” beyond their obedience. And as a pastor, I have to say that Leonard… You are SO right! Wendi, I agree with you except that I’ve been in churches of way less than 100 where the pastor couldn’t care for everybody.

Wow, JOB, it IS all about size?

There were 3000 added on the day of Pentecost, there is no indication anywhere that they divided into separate churches, but stayed “one church” (that seemed to meet in small groups in homes, much like many of ours). And they were adding DAILY to their number from the get go, so they started as a mega-church and grew from there!

Your position is scripturally untenable. I can see EASILY from Scripture that a pastor is to equip his church to do ministry, but to say that a church must divide once it reaches a certain side? Sorry, but that is simply an opinion you hold and not even close to a scriptural proposition.

(However, I agree STRONGLY with you that a person should be part of a church in their community. It’s too bad that so many people feel compelled to drive as far as they do because the church in their community is doing little or nothing to communicate the Gospel in a fashion that makes sense to them.)

Peter,

Another thought on Fathers Day.  What makes my method unscriptural and others not?  According to you “the methods must change ......” You should be applauding me.

Leonard,

“It is not the pastors job to care for people ......”

Something drastically has changed in 15 years.  My father was asked to speak to the chapel at my bible college around 15 years ago.  The compliment that I kept hearing from the professors about my Dad was “there is a man with a Pastor’s heart”.  I know they weren’t refering to the size of his church because it wasn’t big.  So what possibly could they have meant?  I know.

Happy Fathers Day Dad.  If more Pastors were like you I wouldn’t feel the need to have this discussion.

JOB,

This is a part of the endless junk that becomes pointless.  You pulled my words out of context.  It is a pastors job to create and lead.  This means he is equipping people so better care is happening. 

I am sure that I am not much like your dad, he sounds like a great guy.  I guess after nearly 30 years in ministry, God still has room for people to be different.

JOB –

I appreciate and have often heard the term “a pastor’s heart.” But don’t you think the term reflects our western understanding of the role of a pastor over a correct biblical understanding of the role?  The closest thing I know of to a NT job description for pastors is the passage Peter cited from Eph. 4, and it doesn’t mention caretaking but does indicate that the pastor’s job is to equip (katartismos). Only used once in the NT, the word is also translated perfect or prepare.  It describes helping people fulfill their ultimate purpose.  This emphatic preposition, to me, doesn’t imply the kind of personal caretaking that is implied by the “pastor’s heart” description. 

And regarding the idea of large church found in scripture – you may be right that many of those Pentecost converts returned to their homes (way more than 3000 when you consider women and children).  Nevertheless, the Jerusalem church had certainly become a mega-church by the time Peter and John stood before the Sanhedrin (4:4).  By then, this local church had grown to 5000+ men (probably over 10,000 total).  I really doubt if this church’s’ pastor, Jesus’ brother James would have been able to personally care for more than a very small fraction of his church.  If caring for the congregation is a function of the pastor, this church had to have had a very large pastoral staff.

JOB – you didn’t really respond to my question.  Would you agree that a church that continues with the same attendance (large or small) year after year, having not planted other churches, is unhealthy?  If a church is reaching and discipling lost people, it will grow, right?

Hope all you guys had a great fathers day.

Wendi

Wendi,

“Would you agree that a church that continues with the same attendance (large or small) year after year, having not planted other churches, is unhealthy?  If a church is reaching and discipling lost people, it will grow, right?”

It depends.  There are so many other factors involved that are involved in numerical growth.  For example, a church could be in a growth decline because of the population statistics in the area, a large company closes down etc. A church’s people can be reaching others for Christ at their jobs and in other areas and the new believers can attend other churches.  My Dad’s church didn’t win any numerical growth awards but he trained about 1/2 dozen men that now Pastor their own churches.  And let’s not forget that if a church’s growth stays the same for many many years it is a good sign that families are continuing in the faith which I still believe is the best discipleship “program “ out there.  But of course there are some dead churches out there where the people have no interest in reaching out to their communites. I’m with you in rebuking them but they are stil God’s sheep and need to be treated like it.

I’ll get back to you later Peter.