One of the six barriers was “Certainty of Leadership” - but I didn’t see that covered in Part 1 or 2.  Did I miss something?

I’ve been reading comments on the blog, and it seems y’all have boiled it down to a debate questioning an emphasis on church growth versus just obey God and do ministry and don’t be concerned with growth.  Really, it’s not a either/or situation here ... it’s a both/and situation.  In a country were only 1% of all church growth is accomplished through conversion growth, I’d have to say ... we need to talk about that.  I think church health is the real issue ... and church growth will occur automatically. 

And yes, church growth is mentioned in the NT.  Ephesians 4:16 (NLT) - “As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.”

Maybe we should call the barriers, barriers to church health instead of barriers to church growth. 

And ... any emphasis on the act of planning (I’ve heard that joke before and I understand the spirit of it) should be in the context of Spirit-led and Spirit energized plans, obviously not man’s plans.  Gosh ... as soon as you mention the word “planning”, people bristle up and assume you’re talking about man-originated plans.  We’re not!  Keep planning in the context of just plain getting more intentional about what we’re doing and why.  Proverbs 2:11 (NLT)- “Wise planning will watch over you.” Proverbs 3:21 (NLT) - “Don’t lose sight of good planning and insight.” That’s not a suggestion, but a command.  It’s Spirit-led and energized plans that we’re talking about here.

I think we’re being way too analytical and critical about what the author is saying. Catch the spirit or “ethos” of the point.  He’s simply saying that in many churches, the delivery of worship, sermon, children’s ministry etc. is mediocre and that mediocrity can be a barrier to lost people connecting.  Titus 2:10 says, “showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.” We can “adorn” or make more attractive the Gospel by doing things with excellence.  The motivation for excellence in all we do is twofold:  Glorify God and attract people to Jesus.  I think we’re finding ways to be way too critical about what the author is saying.

Looking at the comments, yes, I think we all agree that there should be a balance.  Everything we do should be excellent.  We should also do everything “in the Spirit.” However, it seems that many of the articles are too far “flesh” and not enough “spirit,” or at least tempered with bringing in the spirit.

The “flesh” needs to be warned about more.  The “flesh” has taken over too many churches.  Dan Dufek has a lot of insight in his comments regarding the Apostle Paul.  I think many of the things that Paul is warning about should keep us on guard… from those who do the opposite by advocating these same things…

Another thing I wondered about… the author mentions a “growth” barrier.  I think someone that plants churches wouldn’t be worried about this.  This is only a worry of someone trying to build a large church.  Is it assumed that a large church is better and the norm rather than planting smaller churches-- like house churches...?  Sure, the large church gets the fame and popularity for the preacher, but is that what the Lord wants?

Now that I write this, I’m even questioning the “everything should be done excellent.” (This is getting to be a popular Evangelical training cliche.) Yes, we shouldn’t be sloppy or lazy, but this also looks like it’s pushing perfectionism.  If you made all your plans perfect before you do something, I see how that can limit God in the work, and reaching out in faith… if you’re not careful, this could all be done in the flesh, and I see that sneaking in here…

I think we may need more supernatural spiritual power in our churches today… rather than more professionalism and perfectionism…

...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247

As for the article, I agree perhaps I was too critical however there is a larger issue here. Attracting people to Jesus vs. preaching the Good News and allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work. This is the inherent flaw in the CGM (Church Growth Movement) it borders on Pelagianism.

I guess we must in Christian love disagree for I do not believe that “we” can do anything to make the gospel more attractive. I do agree we must strive to bring honor and Glory to God, I suppose it comes down to this, if Christians were preaching the word (Only 1% share their faith as Bernie pointed out) We would see growth based on God’s increase and not man’s attractive worship service.

Would you please name two or three megachurches that are compromising the message of salvation through Jesus Christ?  Thank you.

First Post- OK ready here it goes. What Todd just said is so valid we often tend to be critcle of those who are doing the “job” that we see ourselves are wanting to do but cant. As for excelence in ministry how can you argue against it? If the research out is true that the next generation is an experiencial generation is it easier to experience God through excellence or through our half hearted efforts? Whether in worship, childrens ministry or what ever it is clear in scripture that we are to do everything as unto the Lord. I feel that when we say we shouldnt pursue excelence that we are saying the God we serve isnt worth it. The Malachi passage above said a huge thing by itself so everyone go back and read it again. thanks for the discussion.

Bernie,

Absolutely.  Couldn’t agree more.

(And I have read the Jim Bakker’s book, it’s a great read and a good lesson).

But the conversation started here (by you)… was not on the topic of barriers to growth and how to overcome them, but on something totally different… how the church has gotten too focused on growth and numbers; how we need to do ‘God’s will’ rather than doing ‘things’ with excellence.  To me, it’s just a downer.  My response would be that most of the church’s aren’t too focused on growth… they’re merely focussed on outreach and conversion of the lost through methods that you don’t particularly care for.  They’re focused on doing the things they feel called to do (and do it with excellence) and you’re questioning whether they are doing God’s will at all.

It’s just not (again) where I’d hope this post would go; and I think that most new people here will read posts like this, and just choose not to come back.  :(

Todd

Jim wrote:

“The prevailing assumption I get as I read this material is that the church exists to get more people to come to church. That strikes me as a western ‘business/marketing’ approach. We ask questions regarding
‘target audiences’ or ‘target people groups’.”

I think the author is saying that we can find that in today’s culture there can be ‘barriers’ (that’s what this article is about) that keep people from attending.  Of course he’s not saying that the church exists to have more people come.  Personal relationship are an important part of the church; why not do all we can (even if we steal some great ideas from the business world) to enhance relationships, make people more likely to attend, and in so doing, accept Christ?

That, in many cases, seems like a win-win to me.

Todd

Topic: Barriers To Growth And How To Overcome Them

I like the way Jesus handled a discussion.  The Bible says iron sharpens iron.  Many pastors only have a one way conversation (i.e. their monolog).  But when I see Jesus He dialoged.  I think many valid things were said and I am glad for the people who came forward and said them.  The Bible says despise not prophesys.  Let two or more speak and let the others judge.  We are one body and we have need of each other.

On the topic Barriers To Growth And How To Overcome Them: I have been reading the blogs and what has been crying out to me is that many seem to be missing the boat.  Let me explain.  In the Gospels Jesus said to Peter when you are converted strengthen your brethren.  Peter was an aposal.  Peter had preached and taught and worked miricles but Peter still needed to be converted.  Jesus had large crowds following Him.  And there was a time when they were coming for the physical food, but Jesus said to them “you came for the bread but I tell you unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you have no part with Me.” Many left at this time but the disciples stayed and said to Jesus that He had the words to eternal life.  When you use the word growth in this blog it seems to mean numbers, health of church, growing in gifts of evangelism, discipleship, teaching, friendship, administration, etc.  For me growth is following Jesus Christ.  Jesus said pick up your cross and follow Me or your not worthy of Me.  In todays American Church how many martyrs can you name?  Do not ignor my question!  The Bible says beware of those that are enemies of the cross of Christ.  What I am hearing is a lot of sound but not much demonstration.  The Bible tells us of all that Jesus began to do and teach.  Talking about growth I would like to hear from those who have literal scars from following Christ.  The Bible gives much commendation to believers like these and warns those who do not have the scars to beware of arrogance.  There were those who contended with Paul then Paul showed them what He had suffered for Christ.  I believe that Lord willing God will call our congregations out on the playing field.  There have many that have gone before us (Hebrews 11 & 12) and God says He has not left us out.  I believe that the topic won’t mean much when the persecution starts as you are discussing it.  Jesus promises us that the persecution will come.  How many of the pastors are preparing their churches for martyrdom.  If not are we not giving them false expectations.  Real church growth is based on a solid foundation of the blood of Jesus Christ.  Paul was able to say I have on my body the scars of our Lord Jesus.  The Bible warns us in the last days there will be a great falling away from the faith.  It also says during the tribulation that many with out number from every nation, tongue, kindred and people that are clothed with the blood of the Lamb overcame the devil with the blood of the lamb, the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death.  Speaking of growth I am tired of hearing the American feminized men still doing the mothers job with the milk and the nipple.  Jesus said “now will My Father be glorified” and He practiced what He preached and picked up His cross and showed us how to be the son of man.  The Bible is all about a marriage reconciliation between God and the world (John 3:16) and the method is Jesus Christ and Him crucified the bride following.

Dan wrote:

I enjoyed the discussion, but as a first timer (posting to the blog) would have appreciated knowing that only “positive” comments were acceptable, and if there was a specific direction that discussion was supposed to follow I would have appreciated knowing that as well.

Dan, Todd here (the owner and moderator of the blog).  Glad you’re here. 

I, by no means want to censor what happens here, but after a few months of blogging, I see the potential as a help to pastors and churches in ministry.  But most of the posts here lately have been pastors talking down, complaining, or criticizing; and it just gets old after a while.

I posted a story about a small church that gave in faith to a larger church ministry; only to have a ton of posts saying how ‘unbiblical’ the church had been; that they had done things ‘all wrong’ and that they needed to do things totally differently.  The pastor of the church then chimed in and felt like he had to defend himself. 

Another story dealt with a prominent pastor who told a story of faith and how God reminded him about his mission and calling.  Most of the response was that the pastor was ‘hearing things’ or that he needed to read his bible more.  He actually posted personally, I think because he felt like he needed to defend his integrity.

Another story on church’s and technology was written by an non-christian about the church; and the only thing we could find to discuss about it was how negative the influence of technology has been.

I just find a thread of negativity of pastors towards anyone or anything that seems to be getting results for the kingdom.

This article, for instance, was meant (and this is the third time I’ve referenced this) to be encouraging to churches who are struggling.  Maybe you don’t accept the premise; but it did turn into a negative church bashing thread (again).  I can almost predict where the conversation will go here with each subject I tackle.  And it makes me scratch my head and think that this is part of the reason the church has so many problems.  We fight about everything.  And while we do, people watch us fight and don’t want to have anything to do with us.

Could be I’m just having an overly sensitive day; maybe I’m just not in my normal debating mood; maybe I’m just too idealistic.  But it just seems that we’re fighting over little things and missing the great opportunity to move forward together.

Feel free to post your response.  Is this topic interesting to everyone who’s reading, or a downer?  (It might just be me)

Todd

Todd-

Thank you for your comments and your warm welcome. I do appreciate were you are coming from and understand what you were originally driving for in terms of response to the article. I believe based on the number of comments that most of us are engaging in dialogue around the subject matter of “barriers to growth” perhaps it is only on the fringe but it is being discussed. Church growth and in particular mega-churches are an issue facing churches today (particulary as you mentioned the smaller churches) While this may have gone in a different direction than you had originally hoped, I believe the conversation has been wholesome, non-threatening and shouldn’t be viewed by anyone as hostile.

Let us move forward together, watching out for one another. I welcome your input as it helps me to view other perspectives, and if we as Pastors or better yet Christians cannot engage in open dialogue with one another about these topics where pray tell will we? I believe that this is the best forum for engaging in such discussions as we are not airing our “dirty” laundry to unbelievers.

I do agree with Mr. Miller we are a soceity that has yet to face the sort of persecution that has faced our brethren in other parts of the world, we really should gird up our loins and equip people. In light of the persecution abroad, church growth does seem to be a little Laodicean doesn’t it? (Just a personal observation not intended as a critique of the article, which I did enjoy by the way)

hey guys.

I am glad to be able to come to a site and discuss things that are relevant to the church as a whole today. Why is it that growth always is associated with human motives and human results? I have been in churches that had 35 members and churches that have 10,000 members. The churches i refer to had only one difference-the number of people attending. Both had people who were totally committed to the great commission. Both were convinced that excellence was something that God deserved. As a side bar yes excellence is attractive to people and that is just a extra bonus for us as churches. If us doing ministry with excellence is what it takes to reach one soul for the kingdom of God isn’t it worth it? Why do we feel that relevant ministry and excellence means compromising the Gospel? I beg to differ. I believe excellence and relevance is us fulfilling the gospel remember Paul saying “become all things to all people so that by any means one may come to Christ”? It was also Paul who was very critical f Peter for conforming to his old ways and that they should not hinder people by enforcing the “old” teachings about circumcision? I for one am encouraged by the writings here and wont let a few who have whatever issues to question the motives or the results of large churches. Todd thanks for moderating this and for those who think that mega churches only encourage the flesh get a hold of me and I can share with you some stories of people I personally know who have crossed the line of faith and heaven is their future. I am sure they would all agree with the lack of excellence being a barrier.

greg