I definitely think they are going back on their word.  While many wouldn’t like it they are totally within their right to say they will have no future dealings with any A29 affiliated church plants.  But to go back on their words with church planters they have current agreements with (which are agreements in writing mind you) is not only unjustified it’s sinful.

To quotes someone I respect, these people seem to be doing this.  “Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.”

Having planted 2 churches, the 500 a month could be used by the church but will not kill it.  It is the partnership lost that is sad.  Church planting can be very lonely and this did nothing to say, we understand you, the culture your trying to reach, the call you have.  It sent the message; “you are not one of us.”

Josh hit the nail on the head. . . many in the SBC would run Jesus out of their denomination. . . Making non-biblical opinions a test of fellowship is disheartening if not despicable.

Daryl,
 I agree with your general argument, drinking really doesn’t improve life on the whole and doesn’t help to solve problems.  Only God does that.  However, we need to be where these people are.  You don’t easily save a drowning person by standing from a distance and shouting/encouraging them to swim.  You can toss a line or reach out, but sometimes you have to jump in to pull them up.
 Besides, I seem to remember this guy who lived a long time ago and started some weird sect who hung out an awful lot with drinkers/partiers/thieves - aka the “bad” people.  He even got something of a reputation for it among the religious leaders of the day, but his reasoning was that he needed to help the sick, not those who were well.
 Looking at the original article, it seems that the agreement was personal abstention and teaching about the dangers of drinking - something the pastor was doing.  However, teaching/preaching about not drinking to people who don’t drink anyway seems kind of silly to me.  They don’t need the message.
 This pastor was apparently going out to meet the people where they were and getting involved in their lives.  The MBC felt they had to stick to their guns on this, but I think they were wrong in this case and have done more harm than good to their cause, not to mention added more to the general (negative) stereotypes of Christians/Baptists.
 Let me add one other thought (and note that I really don’t support or endorse drinking myself) - how do you engage with the people who hang out in bars if you can’t go into them?  You don’t have to drink and going into a bar doesn’t make you a drinker any more than going to a carwash makes you a car.  I’d probably say that going to “adult” clubs would be giving cause for an inappropriate appearance, but more because of the other things that happen there.  I am saddened by the trend in the SBC to so strongly condemn alcohol that we won’t go near the people who consume it.  It seems that we’re missing the point somewhere along the way.

 BTW, I agree with your general observations overall and have lost a member of my family to alcoholism.  Even with that, other members of my family will have the occasional drink - some more than others, but not to excess and never even anything “hard”.  They’d all agree, despite the loss, that drinking is not a sin.  My general argument was that drinking is not a sin as outlined in the Bible.  To say that it is seems to be adding something to God’s word, kind of like the Pharisees did to protect the Law.

Peter,

That last portion of your argument was very strong. What do you think about is these scriptures:

Prov 20:1
1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
(KJV)

Prov 31:4-7
4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
(KJV)

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

Rom 14:21
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
(KJV)

1 Tim 5:23
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
(KJV)

Daryl, I’ve seen all of the verses before - none say that drinking is a sin, but they do warn against drinking to excess (except that Proverbs 31 verse - seems to encourage that if you’re in heavy mourning ).  Luke seems to refer to a vow taken by some of the religious men of the day - something like taking a vow of chastity for service in some denominations.  I seem to remember that Samson was supposed to have had a similar vow.
As for the Romans argument, Paul argues that he has liberty to do all things through Christ (though not all things are helpful as explained elsewhere). However, if he exercises that liberty in such a way as to cause others to stumble, that isn’t a good thing.  Still nothing about alcohol consumption being a sin.
Timothy actually encourages the drinking of a little wine, though I realize this is for medicinal purposes. 
Finally, there were several instances in Jesus’ life as recorded in scripture that dealt with alcohol.  His first recorded miracle of changing water into wine (and I don’t think it would have been grape juice as it was remarked that this was particularly fine wine).  It’s also recorded that Jesus passed around the cup for the Passover meal, containing wine.  He encouraged his followers to drink.  Yes, the argument has been made that this wasn’t really wine either.  It was also done in moderation and the drinking/eating to excess was condemned in Paul’s letters.
I definitely agree that drinking is not helpful in most situations, but I think that in this case, the pastor seems to have been doing the right thing in not taking part himself while meeting the people where they were.  I think it’s sad that the MBC closed down all of the programs due to the handful that were using it in ways they didn’t approve.  I think it’s even more sad that the first reaction was to shut down the program rather than to ask if lives were being changed.  It’s possible to be in a bar without approving of drinking. Some places that serve alcohol do offer some good-tasting food.  It’s possible to be around drinkers without approving of them (or condemning them because of drinking) as Jesus lived out in His life.
Now, I could be completely wrong about this and there may have been a part of the clause in the MBC agreement that indicated a pastor should not be in the presence of any drinking at all unless he starts condemning it, but that doesn’t seem to be the case based on anything I’ve read. If the pastor actually went against the agreement knowingly, then he should probably have been approached with the specific part of the agreement that addressed his behavior and if he still wouldn’t change, then revoke his plant’s part in the program.  I would support that because it would show a pastor not respecting an agreement or the authority behind that agreement.

some people says that the wine that is allowed in the bible would not make you drunk, but it had to be wine instead of grape juice only, because grape juice will not make you drunk, i think he told timothy to drink a little wine because he was young and probially had to put up with a lot of bloggers,he needed it to stedy his nerves.

It’s been a while since posting, but here it goes.

HYPOCRITES!!!!</p/

Up until two years ago I had served in SBC churches for over 25 years.  In every SBC church I served there were many who were known to drink “alcheehol”.  These are the same individuals who want to dictate to every church their beliefs.  Doesn’t the SBC believe in autonomy?

I would agree if this church signed an agreement to teach the MBC belief then it should do so.  However, my guess is behind closed doors a MBC rep with a heart for reaching our world gave his nod.  Sadly some want to mandate something that just can’t be justified by scripture.

By the way, I don’t drink to protect my testimony only.  I have no issue with having a glass of wine or beer, but as a “leader” I must consider the cost of a simple pleasure mute.  I have however been at meals with “pagans” (those far from God needing someone to love them enough to lead them to Jesus) where they had a drink.  I was in no way offended and didn’t care what people thought because the only people who judged me for that were the “Christians” in the crowd who had their panties in a wad. 
I am sure the $500.00 per month will not be missed for one reason.  The MBC is not the churches provider, God is!  Unless of course you believe God despises those who are open to reaching those who are lost.
Stand strong Pastor Larson.  Thank you for not selling out your Vision for the all mighty dollar.  My guess is this person fighting for you learned the age old technique of cutting funds from his SBC members who are famous for that. Remember many of those who are fighting you have no Vision only Criticism of those who do!

The argruments made by some in the church about the wine Jesus made was only grape juice has little weight about it.  When we read the instructions given by Paul to Timothy about the Elders, and Deacons, it tells us that they can use a little wine, or no wine, depending on which one is referred to.  If the wine referred to in the bible is only grape juice, why then can the Elders have no wine, but the Deacons can have “a little”.

BTW, I do not drink alcohol myself because of personal convictions.  But nowhere in the bible will you find that merely drinking wine, or any form of alcohol is a sin.  However, I believe the bible does teach us all, that if we continue to drink and become drunk, that is wrong, just like if we eat, and continue to eat ourselves into gluttony, that too is wrong, or if we judge those who do drink strong drink, that too is sin.

In the New Testament, repeatedly refers to the fact that he used alcohol, even during his The Last Supper - wine.
The fact is that in the ancient language does not distinguish between perebrodivshim grapes wine and juice. The difference visible only from context. A context is the following: during the Easter holidays in the homes of the Jews there should be no leaven: “Seven days there should be no leaven in your houses because people will eat leaven, that the soul will be cut off from society [the children] Israel, whether the alien is or a natural inhabitant of the land “(Exodus 12:19). Based on this, I can safely argue that the wine which Christ used - there was no alcohol, but it was clean grapes juice. Some people try to argue that in a Palestinian was simply impossible to store wine neperebrodivshim long time. But this is just an excuse people who have no understanding of reality. The ancient people has long been known method of sterilization products. That is, grape or other juice bring to a boil and tightly stopper. As such, it can be stored for years, even with Palestinian heat.

Another condition is why we believe that Christ could not use alkogolnoe wine during the evening. The fact is that leaven synonymous with sin, especially in relation to Easter: “You have nothing to boast. Know ye not that little leaven kvass all the dough? So clear leaven old to be your new test, because you beskvasny, for Easter My Christ, zaklan for us. “Therefore will not celebrate the old zakvaskoyu not to zakvaskoyu vice and wickedness, but with opresnokami purity and truth” (1Kor 5:6-8; cf Mt 16:11,12; Luke 12:1 ). Thus, the unleavened bread and pure grape juice should symbolize sinless body and blood of Jesus Christ. If we use the Communion to leaven bread or leaven wine, it thus we say that Christ was a sinner, a sin against the body and blood of the Lord.
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