Two things -

First congratulations on the new website, you have put in a tremendous amount of work on this. It looks great.

Secondly, I am unaware of any major theological error of the PD movement. I do not understand the internal conflicts in the kingdom of God. What is it about our inability to support and work with one another?

Thanks, Randy… I understand your concern.  I don’t want (and really wasn’t asking people to speculate)… but I would like to know from someone who knows what the straw was the broke the camel’s back.

I surely don’t want this to become a gossip board; but when something is newsworthy, I hope we can discuss it without becoming scandalous about it. 

Todd

Thanks, Wendi… and I think that by releasing a vague statement like they did, CC is almost inviting speculation (which is not good).

Todd

KC -

The only thing on the link you gave us about the CC decision is this . . .

[Both Purpose Driven and the emerging church promote contemplative spirituality, which is a belief system that is contrary to biblical Christianity. Popular authors such as Richard Foster, Brian McLaren, Rick Warren, Henri Nouwen, Brennan Manning and many others teach contemplative spirituality (also known as spiritual formation) ]

. . . which of course is nothing.  Where, specifically is the theological problem that is contrary to historic Christian orthodoxy?  I’ve still not heard it.

BTW - what are we to do about all the great church fathers who were monastics and contemplatives, and have offered us some of our richest theology.  Or . . . about all the great (and fundamental and conservative) seminaries that have “spiritual formation” departments.

Oh the danger of generalization . . .

Wendi

Wendi

Here is an undated position paper in which Calvary Chapel seeks to distance itself from the emerging church movement, but says nothing of Rick Warren.  http://www3.calvarychapel.com/ccof2/parsontoparson.pdf

I’m saddened by this CC position paper, because like so much of the criticism against the emergent / seeker church it totally generalizes and lumps all kinds of churches into one heretical category without any evidence that any particular church should be categorized as such.  Worst of all, it encourages Christians to judge wrongly and without evidence, other churches and pastors as “false teachers” (pg. 2, par. 4) anyone who reads a book by Brian McLaren or uses ministry methods sensitive toward seekers.  It implies that having discussions with homosexuals or Muslims means condoning sin or attending a Yoga class is heretical.  It breeds arrogance. 

I guess this distances CC from RW also based on the comments against “seeker sensitive churches.” But I sure wish that someone would point out the errant theology rather than generalizing or calling methodology theology (which it is not).

I remain confused though about what happened.  Did Chuck Smith at one time advocate RW and PDL and now change his mind?  RW has always been using the same methods and with the same message.  What’s changed? 

Wendi

Oops . . . sorry I asked about errant theology.  We’ve heard all that before.

What I really do want to know is why . . . all of a sudden . . . after selling PDL on their through their resources since it was published . . . has Calvary Chapel just now decided that there is a problem?

Who changed?  Calvary Chapel or RW?  What happened?  Are there any Calvary Chapelites who know something?  I searched all over their websites and there is no indication of anything that we haven’t heard from the anti-PDL folks all along.

Wendi

Those of us who are on the progressive side of church methodology would be wise to recognize that medium and message are not always separated. In fact, many time the medium IS the message. The medium also affects how the message is understood and recieved.

I also have to hold this in tension with the movement of culture.

But I guess this is a something for the Forums, so I will move this there.

Not mentioned in the above story is that Chuck has asked any CC churches who adopt “emergent” ideas to drop CC from their name.  Those who have taken him up on that include his son Chuck Smith Jr. 

I spent some time this weekend with a man who was involved in the earliest days of CC and the larger “Jesus People” movement.  He has stayed prominent in the SoCal and national ministry scene.  Many of you would know his name and his work, though I don’t feel free to identify him further.  But look for him in an upcoming reunion of an old Christian band -grin-

He stays on top of church issues and has attended some Emergent conferences.  He’s currently involved in a non-CC church led by a very well known pastor who is close enough to the CC scene to have a regular spot on CSN radio. 

In our discussion about CC’s position paper regarding RW and Emergent, this guy just shook his head and said it’s deja-vu all over again, because Chuck is sounding an awful lot like all the folks who condemned CC in the early days.  It seems we just keep repeating ourselves. 

Another person who was in on the discussion had recently gone through CC’s 2 year Bible School in preparation for CC ministry.  When Chuck Jr,s name came up, he said “Well, he’s been using candles and stuff like that lately.” Further discussion brought up spirituality (I must not understand what that means, ‘cause it doesn’t sound bad to me) contemplative prayer, labyrinths, incense and other apparently dangerous stuff.

A few minutes ago, over on the story about “inclusive language” and the PCUSA, I posted some comments about a possible split in that denomination and a split in progress in another denomination.  Congregations leaving CC kind of qualifies for a third denominational split.  Then we have all the trouble in the Episcopal Church.  Seems like everyone is dividing except the Independents – and they don’t have an organization to split from.  What’s going on?

Ex-PDC Member,

Actually, there is no ‘PDC program’ as you describe, and if you actually read “The Purpose Driven Church” which Rick’s structure of ministry comes from, you’ll find that it’s merely a listing of different areas of ministry in the church.  It’s really nothing all that ground-breaking.

As far as Rick and his ‘program’ taking over your church, I’m not sure what to say.  I hear this same line (or I should say I’ve read this same line) on every anti-Rick Warren site I’ve seen.  Quite honestly, I’ve never seen it happen (but I’ve seen people get honked off and leave because they perceive things have changed).

I’m sorry you were asked to leave your church.  I’m sorry your church changed.  But I’m guessing it was because of something much deeper than because of Rick’s teaching invading your church.

Was your church growing during this time?  Was there an increased activity to reach the lost with the gospel message?  I don’t know… I’m just wondering.  Because this seems to rattle some of the old faithful at some churches.  Then, they tend argue that everything is watered-down, sappy and boring; when in reality people are coming to Christ.

So… really, this doesn’t give much more insight into why CC made the decision to break ties with PD.  When it comes to down to the bottom line, our loyalty shouldn’t be to CC or PD; but to scripture; and I think both movements have been as faithful as possible to doing that.

My opinion only,

Todd

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, I guess.  I don’t want to stray too much from the original intent of the article; and definitely don’t want to go in to a treatise or defense of PD.  (We’ve been there, done that there).

There is no doubt that some people have not taken a liking to PD; and some churches (yours included) suffered because of leadership or whatever.  I’m not sure why, to be honest.  Maybe it’s the leadership that are implementing the change; maybe it’s some of the changes itself being different whan what churches are used to; but there will always be casualties.  There are many churches who have had tremendous success where some have failed miserably.  It’s not that easy to put your finger on.

I do hope that you’ve found someplace that you can worship freely.

Todd

I think EX-PDC member may have a point. If you are going to be PD, call yourself PD. If you are going to be CC call yourself CC and live by that.

There does need to be times where churches innovate and learn from others, but denominations and associations have certain distinctives their adherents should maitain. I don’t mean they should follow without thinking things through or follow into heresy. But, a denomination or association has a right to say, this is what we believe and how our churches should act, and then expect them to live within those boundaries.

Churches are part of a denomination or association because they like the philosophy of ministry, the distinctives, the culture of that particular association. If they cease to like that, then they should cease to call themselves by that associations name.

I believe this, so I left a particular denomination. (I also believe it was God opening doors and leading me elsewhere).