Jerry Hemmingson wrote:
“It is not our job to judge in salvation issues, but it certainly is our job and duty to judge behavior.”

I look forward to seeing the decay and the fade into obscurity of whatever fake religion that caused you to take such an outrageously arrogant point of view.  Whatever religion you practice it certainly doesn’t have anything to do with Jesus.  Good luck to you on the judgement day. I have a feeling you are going to need it.

I don’t get it!  Dos it not seem strange to anyone that Barkley makes such a strong judgmental comment about fake Christians (as he calls them) being so judgmental?

Leonard wrote:
“Mr. Pot I would like you to meet Mr. Kettle.  Not sure you can see that you are doing what you so hate”

Of course I am.  I’m as full of sin as you.  You need to understand that It doesn’t matter about the pot because your kettle is still black.  You need to worry about cleaning your own kettle.  You shouldn’t take my word for it either.  All you need to do is go back to the Bible and read John 7 and 1 Corinthians 6 as CS suggested earlier in this conversation. Both of those stories are excellent examples of the disaster that ensues when religious people start judging each other and bickering amongst themselves.  In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul even says that you should be ashamed of yourself.

When you stand before God on the judgement day you won’t be able to claim you were not warned.

And you continually refer to the judgement seat of Christ… where we will be judged on what? Faithfulness. Faithfulness to keep Christ’s bride pure and free from sin. Faithfulness to be a light in a dark world. What does light expose? Sin. Thus our lives lived each day is a form of God’s judgment on a flawed world.

I shudder to think how a man could respond to Christ on the judgment day when asked, “What did you do to promote justice and my agenda on earth?” if he does not differentiate between sin and righteousness.

Kevin wrote:

“How would you argue your way out of 1 Timothy 1:18-20?”

Kevin, by not skipping over 1 Timothy 15 in a desperate attempt to find a justification in the Bible for self appointed judgementalism?

1 Timothy 15 says:

“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.”

Kevin, why are you in such a hurry to ignore this passage from the Bible?
You should carefully examine yourself and your motives for the true answer.

Kevin wrote:
“THAT is why Paul (and definitely all who are called to be shepherds in the local church) must refuse to allow sin to go on in the local church without calling it out… “

Kevin, that sounds nice but is your church “calling out” everyone in your church during every Sunday gathering who is divorced and/or committing adultery?  Or is your church like most American Christian churches and only “calling out” the sins the are politically advantageous to “call out”??

Kevin, earlier you said this:

“How would you argue your way out of Matthew 18:10-20?”

Did you read all of Matthew 18?  Please read the part of Matthew 18 I have pasted below and explain to me where God gives you the authority to “call out” the sins of others after he forgave you your sins?? 

“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

“The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’

“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

Yes, my church does seek to call out every unrepentant public sin we can. Not in an effort to pretend that we in leadership are without sin, but in an effort to protect our church and our sheep from taking sin lightly. Remember that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Unrepentant, ongoing sin prevents the brother in sin from having real fellowship with God and with his/her brothers in Christ. It is BEST for the errant brother to stop sinning and to have sweet, victorious fellowship with his Creator… we want the best possible life for every believer.

CS’s assessment is true and right. This parable is not applicable to the discussion. The Bible calls us to forgive our brother when he sins against us. This is exactly what “church discipline” when done right is seeking: the restoration of a brother or sister in Christ. When a brother who has been caught in sin repents, we are quick to forgive and restore! That is what the Bible teaches.

The thing that really worries me about many of your comments and rebuttals is that you appear to believe that the Bible contradicts itself. That is so dangerous! If you do in fact believe this then our conversation is fruitless as we are diametrically opposed.

I know that the Word of God is unchanging and true in every way. What you have done, thus far, is refuse to acknowledge the scriptures that I and others have pointed out; but instead you quote other scripture that are either speaking of entirely different issues or are pulled out of context in your arguments. You have not been able to answer the scriptures that clearly point out our RESPONSIBILITY to our brothers in Christ.

Another amusing thing to note is that anytime you quote Paul’s letters to the churches, you are quite literally contradicting the principle of your argument. Each of Paul’s letters had dual purposes: to encourage the church and to call out sin that was present. This was done in a loving and beneficial way to each body; likewise the church must learn from Paul’s model of how we are to call out sin.

I fear this conversation has turned fruitless, as it appears we won’t see eye to eye on this topic. As someone else pointed out, I am sorry that the church has hurt you in the past. I am sorry we can’t come to a consensus. I am sorry for the pain that you have experienced.

I am going to bow out of this conversation to avoid “fruitless controversies” as the Bible instructs.

Thank you for your comments and candor.

His,
Kevin

Deaubry wrote:
“when we are at the judgement seat of christ, and jesus ask how i plead i will say i plead the blood of jesus”

And just exactly what do you plan to do when Jesus replies: “‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

You should go read Matthew 7 again carefully and become very concerned for your future.

i am not concerned about my future because i have the holy spirit of god, if you have not the holy spirit of god you are none of his.but if i do sin jesus will forgive me, but thank you for being concerned,

Deabury wrote:
“thank you for being concerned, “

You are very welcome.

Peter Hamm wrote:
“Mark, too far… “

Peter, which part of Matthew 7 do you think went too far?

Leonard wrote:
“time to stop now Mark.  This blog site is for exchanging ideas”

Is it really, Leonard, or is this site only for ideas you approve of?  My idea is that Matthew 7:21 is extremely serious business and that you may be twisting the writings of Paul out of context to suite your own earthly purposes and you do so at your own peril.  Which part of Matthew 7 do you suggest we should stop reading, quoting and discussing?

CS wrote:
“On the one hand, you’re telling people to stop judging”

You need to learn how to pay better attention to the conversation.  I’m not telling you anything.  God is instructing you through Matthew 7 to not judge others.  The text is simple and clear. Perhaps you need to learn how to read?

CS went on to write:
“...and on the other, you’re calling people out as being not Christians”

Again, for the slow learners, I’m not calling anyone out.  Its not for me to Judge. Matthew 7:23 was not written by me.  If you don’t like what Matthew 7 plainly and clearly requires for you to call yourself a Christian and to get into heaven then I suggest you take up your issue with the author.

Its going to be fun watching you with a shocked look on your face on the judgement day when you are crying and whining to Jesus: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out homosexuals and perform many other miracles?’

And then Jesus tells you: ‘I never knew you. Away from me...”

You have the same opportunity to read and follow Matthew 7 as I do.  Charles Barkley is pointing you to Matthew 7. I suggest you take heed of his warning and not squander your opportunity before its too late.

What I want is for you to read Matthew 7 and stop ignoring it.

Peter wrote:
“You have taken one scripture out of context… with the rest of scripture”

God’s word is clear in Matthew 7.  The rest of scripture is perfectly in tune with Matthew 7 when you understand that the rest of scripture is an admonishment for each of us and our own behavior, The rest of scripture does not give permission for us to appoint ourselves Lord over others. 

Charles Barkley is correct.  We need to listen to him.

And what finer day than this to throw off old selfish ways and renew our commitments to live in harmony without judging each other as God has instructed us to do in Matthew 7,