{A judge recently dismissed the lawsuit, but said the church members were entitled to see financial records.}

That sounds like it should end the matter. But we only know what we read on the web…

Two cents:

.01 Lay your books out for all to see. Provide monthly, or at least quarterly statements.

.02 Since when does being a long-time member exempt you from accountability and discipline? Filing the lawsuit is grounds, as far as me and Paul are concerned.

What happened to the take offenses up to the person and then a brother to act as mediator??? I agree that lawsuits among Christians is not good and a VERY VERY poor Godly testimony.

I do agree with previous comments that in a church if your a member you should have access (yearly/ monthly etc) to ALL records etc BUT I think it should be presented in a meeting and not just handed out on request.

Lets hope all the parties pull their head in.

Randy said:

“While the Bible is our first and foremost guide and authority, it is not a procedure manual, and a church needs one.”

Oh, my God!  I can’t believe you said this!

You’ve just proven the point that I’ve been trying to make for years on this site...that to you, and to probably most others who frequent this site, the “church” is the organization that incorporates with the state and the federal government.

You’ve just proved that.

However, in contrast to your belief, the Word IS a “procedure manual” for THE Church, which is devoid of heirarchical structures and self-made positions. 

The Word teaches us how to live with other believers in a very public fashion (and not behind walls), which, if done humbly, shouts forth God’s presence on the earth.

A “procedure manual” has NEVER and will NEVER have an ounce of spiritual guidance in it.

Wake up!  It’s time to start living it.

This has always been, and probably always will be, a large issue. How do we live out being “in the world but not of it”? What does it mean that the Kingdom of God is the opposite of the world we live in?

Even the Wall Street Journal is tracking this issue ... http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB120061470848399079-lMyQjAxMDI4MDEwODYxMTg0Wj.html

IMHO, this stuff should never end up in the courts between brothers and sisters in Christ. That it did (and that it does) seems a missed discipleship issue somewhere for someone involved.

Given that, my answer to Todd’s question is that they should have stopped short of asking for a written apology. Anyone can write a letter. Everything goes back to the heart.

My recommendation would be for the church leaders to contact a Christian Conciliation Ministry for consultation.

Hi!  Interesting discussion.  I, too, have been on the receiving end of an unbiblical and unjust excommunication.  We did everything possible to reconcile with Doug Phillips, the very public minister who excommunicated us.  After two years, we finally went public with our story—online.  That seemed to be our only option left of “taking it to the church.” We rejected suing him, although legally we had every right to.  I rejected the Wall Street Journal’s offer of telling my story in that article because this is a church matter.  I don’t know all the details on both sides of any of those stories being discussed, but I do know that in the last year of my going public, that Doug Phillips has yet to refute one thing I’ve alleged against him.

So here’s the question for you guys.  When I’ve done all that I can possibly do on my end, and my former pastor chases me from church to church making sure that no church ever allows me to attend, what do I do?  There was no real sin in the first place.  I voted for Bush for president, while he wanted me to vote for Peroutka.  Who?  Yeah, I know!  And then I had the gall to tell him why.

If you want to read my story, just click on my name.  I’ll listen to any advice you guys might have, but sometimes it’s not so simple as it should be.

Jen:

If I were you, I’d speak to an attorney because it sounds as if your “pastor” is slandering your name to other “pastors.”

Defamation of character, especially by someone who has abused their “position,” must not be tolerated and because you will not find remedy with other “pastors,” because they all stick together (after all, how can one go against his own authority?).

Until then, you’ll be hounded by that jerk who calls himself a “pastor” but is really a butcher.

God bless and keep you.

Ricky,

I am, as most would agree, usually very careful in my words and very polite. I will continue to be careful with my words with you, but I feel compelled to be no longer “polite”.

I have not been “conditioned by the seminaries”. I have not even been to one, nor have I been to a Bible College for that matter, although I may be as well-read in the faith as many who’ve been to one or both. I am not basing my theology on ONE scripture, and I might argue that you are basing yours on NO scriptures.

Consider these for starters:

What about Jesus’ instruction to Peter to “feed my sheep”? That wasn’t a call to leadership? What about the clear distinction between two different levels of followers in the Gospels (the 12 and the 72)? That’s not hierarchical?

What about the picture of Church “government” in the book of Acts, where it is VERY clear throughout that some are called to lead? Look especially at Acts 1 and Peter’s example of leadership and the necessity of filling the vacant leadership/"pastor" position. Look at Acts 5 where Peter is clearly “leading” during the Ananias/Sapphira incident. Look at Acts 6 where the “leaders” are clearly “leading” to deal with the first real controversy in the church. And examine Acts 15, where Peter is CLEARLY “leading” the council at Jerusalem. Look also at the tone of Paul’s letters, where he is CLEARLY asserting --in what were letters to them at first but is Scripture for us-- that he is in a “position” of “leadership”.

What about Ephesians 4:11-13, where it is explicitly stated that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are God’s gift to the church for equipping leadership (nouns, not verbs)? What about three entire letters of instructions to pastors in the New Testament?

What about The Romans 12 exhortation for those with the spiritual gift of leadership to to take that responsibility seriously? This is just the few that come quickly to mind.

(Please do not respond to “one” of my above examples unless and until you are able to respond adequately to all of them, and all of Scripture.)

Your ongoing assertion that there is no instruction in the New Testament for people to lead in the church (You’ve said as much before) is groundless and baseless, and your diatribes continue to be quite rude.

Ricky, your position is scripturally untenable, and I fear that somebody new who comes along might think that you’ve adequately thought through the assertions that you make, when it is clear from Scripture that you are proof-texting (although in the past few years, as you have occasionally posted on this forum, I have never seen you provide even a proof-text against examples such as those I’ve stated above, so what you are doing is even more unsound than proof-texting).

I think that you have not thought through those claims at all, but are merely blowing off steam or the like. I pray that YOU might grasp the truth that will set you free from the hatefulness and bitterness that you harbor toward God’s church, for whatever reason you may hold it (and it certainly isn’t scriptural).

Peter said:

Okay, Peter, let’s look at your theology and compare it to the Scriptures you’ve posted.

“What about Jesus’ instruction to Peter to ‘feed my sheep?’ That wasn’t a call to leadership?  What about the clear distinction between two different levels of followers in the Gospels (the 12 and the 72)? That’s not hierarchical?”

Peter, as the other eleven, were chosen and prepared by Jesus for ONE purpose and one purpose only...to build and to strengthen the First Church.  There were to be no successors to Peter’s or the other apostles as to their special place in the forming of the Church, hence Paul’s use of the word “having been built upon the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:19-21).

Unless you believe in Catholic dogma, the only true apostles, the foundational apostles and prophets, were Peter and those listed in the New Testament.  They no longer exist but still speak to us through the Scriptures.

Now as to your question as to whether Jesus’ words to Peter was a “call to leadership,” I would say that it was a call to service, which became seen as a leadership position but not the one you’re claiming.  Peter never would have allowed a sign to be placed on his office door (assuming he would have wanted an office) or to be called “Pastor Peter” or “Apostle Peter” because he understood that was Jesus was calling him to was a FUNCTIONAL calling not a POSITIONAL, and because he was to be included with others in the initial building of the Church, he was to later be honored in heaven.

Peter, the “offices” or “positions” that you claim are “leadership” in Ephesians 4:11 are FUNCTIONAL in nature and therefore fluid...as the Spirit leads and gifts.  It was NEVER intended to be taken as some sort of hierarchical “us over them” structure but one of watching and guarding the flock of God as the flock equips itself to the works of service as led by the Spirit and with Christ ALONE leading that group.

“What about the picture of Church ‘government’ in the book of Acts, where it is VERY clear throughout that some are called to lead? Look especially at Acts 1 and Peter’s example of leadership and the necessity of filling the vacant leadership/"pastor" position. Look at Acts 5 where Peter is clearly ‘leading’ during the Ananias/Sapphira incident. Look at Acts 6 where the “leaders” are clearly “leading” to deal with the first real controversy in the church. And examine Acts 15, where Peter is CLEARLY ‘leading’ the council at Jerusalem. Look also at the tone of Paul’s letters, where he is CLEARLY asserting --in what were letters to them at first but is Scripture for us-- that he is in a ‘position’” of “leadership”.

Your assertion that Peter was “CLEARLY leading” the council at Jerusalem puts you in direct opposition to most “pastors” who claim that James was the supposed “pastor” of Jerusalem. 

So which is it?  Is Peter, the apostle, the one in charge or was it James, another apostle?

It was neither.  They, both being apostles, were the ones, as stated above, go guard the flock and keep false doctrine out of the embryonic Church.  Instead, the entire Church was involved in the process, not just the so-called “leaders.”

Acts 15:22: “Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church,”

This, to me, shows that while a New Testament church has a plurality of elders guarding it, decisions are made as a unit with EVERY believer having an equal say in what goes on.

It would seem that people who hold this belief, as I do, would be burned at the stakes by the likes of you.

“What about Ephesians 4:11-13, where it is explicitly stated that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are God’s gift to the church for equipping leadership (nouns, not verbs)? What about three entire letters of instructions to pastors in the New Testament?”

Again, as stated before the gifts are FUNCTIONAL in nature not POSITIONAL (i.e., verbs vs. nouns).  Also please advise that Paul includes himself when saying that the gifts, which flow through ALL believers as the Spirit leads (thus making it purely FUNCTIONAL), are for the equipping of the saints and is done by the saints:

“…until WE all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” (v. 13).  Paul implies that it is the Body as a whole which equips itself for service and not just a select few…as you propose.  If Paul, gifted as an apostle, was equipped by the entire Body functioning as a unit with Christ as it sole Head, then how has it changed over the centuries?  Easy.  It was changed by those who wanted to keep control and their livelihoods (i.e., priests, pastors)

“What about The Romans 12 exhortation for those with the spiritual gift of leadership to take that responsibility seriously? This is just the few that come quickly to mind.”

The Greek word for “rule,” as is it translated in several versions is “proistemi.” It is a VERB and basically means to “stand up” or “stand before,” as in protecting or caring for a flock.  It is NOT to be taken as to rule in a hierarchical fashion.  Such is completely foreign to the New Testament Church.  Otherwise, why would Jesus have said we are not rule over others as the Gentiles (as in their worldly hierarchical structures) did (Matthew 20:25ff).  In other words, the Gentiles (i.e., non-believers) had clearly divisible lines of political authority, which could be handed down from father to son or be legislatively established.  This is simply not so in the Kingdom of God where there is only one Head but many members, with no member being any higher or lower than another.

To hold to your belief would be to place differing value or importance on certain members by virtue of some man-made idea of “government” or “spiritual authority,” phrases not found in the entirety of Scripture. 

“(Please do not respond to “one” of my above examples unless and until you are able to respond adequately to all of them, and all of Scripture.)”

You demand that I produce Scripture to validate my view…how about the same from you instead of these blurbs of teachings that you’ve heard about authority from those who claim some type of faux-authority.

“Your ongoing assertion that there is no instruction in the New Testament for people to lead in the church (You’ve said as much before) is groundless and baseless, and your diatribes continue to be quite rude.”

Far be it from me to compare myself with Jesus, but I must also state that the same was said about Him when he challenged the Pharisees’ so-called authority.

“Ricky, your position is scripturally untenable, and I fear that somebody new who comes along might think that you’ve adequately thought through the assertions that you make, when it is clear from Scripture that you are proof-texting (although in the past few years, as you have occasionally posted on this forum, I have never seen you provide even a proof-text against examples such as those I’ve stated above, so what you are doing is even more unsound than proof-texting).”

My brother, if anyone is proof-texting it is you.  As I stated above, you have done nothing to bolster your argument but to regurgitate old, traditional teachings that have no foundation in Scripture.  I know where you come from because I was under the delusion for years!  But by approaching Scripture with an open mind and heart, I’ve been able to just scratch the surface of the truth which has been hidden from us for centuries.  I pray the same happen to you.

“I think that you have not thought through those claims at all, but are merely blowing off steam or the like. I pray that YOU might grasp the truth that will set you free from the hatefulness and bitterness that you harbor toward God’s church, for whatever reason you may hold it (and it certainly isn’t scriptural).”

I certainly and genuinely appreciate your prayers…I really do, because my heart is that I not only find the Truth but abide in it.  However, I am not filled with bitterness or hate for the Church for she is the Bride of Christ.  I’m just tired of her having been molested by those who claim to protect her but instead have taken advantage of her to their own peril and the damage to her witness.

Ricky… briefly…

First off, I don’t believe I ever asserted that any position, such as a pastoral or leadership position, is “above” other people. I work hard, and indeed the church I serve in works hard, to remind people that this is never the case.

[There were to be no successors to Peter’s or the other apostles as to their special place in the forming of the Church]. In Acts 1 they pick a successor to Judas and later on Paul becomes the least of the apostles. Also, there are three letters in the NT written to pastors, neither of which are among the original 12. Again, that is THREE letters IN THE BIBLE written to instruct pastors, people who you assert should just quit their jobs and find some other line of work.

[Peter never would have allowed a sign to be placed on his office door ] You have no scriptural basis for that statement, but I would concur that the ridiculous “respect” that some in the pastorate enjoy and expect is inappropriate. In fact, at our church, we have specifically asked our people to understand that we are ALL the priesthood of all believers, and therefore, please don’t call us “pastor” (even though, by position, that is what we are). Others have done the same.

[The Greek word for “rule,”...] Noun, verb, look at the whole text, not one word. That’s one of the classical exegetical fallacies. The clear point of Romans 12:8 is that leadership is a spiritual gift. That is my point, and it’s in black and white there in Romans. Those who’ve been gifted to lead must do so diligently. The implication is obvious, that some are called to lead. How can you possibly get around that.

[...In other words, the Gentiles (i.e., non-believers) had clearly divisible lines of political authority...] Ricky, you are reading in here, based on your suppositions, not based on what the text says. BUT, you are right in saying that we are to “lead” very differently than the world does, and, in our church, we very intentionally do that. Many others are similar. I wish and pray you’d find one like ours.

[It would seem that people who hold this belief, as I do, would be burned at the stakes by the likes of you.] Please can the rhetoric.

[Again, as stated before the gifts are FUNCTIONAL in nature not POSITIONAL (i.e., verbs vs. nouns). ] I know enough greek to know that the words in greek in this Ephesians passage are indeed nouns. They are most definitely not verbs.

[My brother, if anyone is proof-texting it is you.] Really? I provided for you 6 distinct scriptures, plus the entirety of Paul’s letters. I would maintain that your arguments in response were mainly revisionist history involving supposition and eisogesis, as well as the faulty contention that nouns are verbs.

This debate has gotten a little pointless, Ricky, and none of your arguments seem to really hold water. You say that I “regurgitate old, traditional teachings”, I would say that you are coming up with interesting brand new meanings that aren’t and never were there. They don’t pass anybody’s test of orthodoxy that I’m aware of. Is that of NO concern to you?

This is entertaining for you and me, for sure, but now it’s getting off track of the purpose of Todd’s blog. MMI is a place for people to discuss the very thing you seem to despise, the local church and the leadership of it. Again… perhaps, as I believe Todd has suggested to you before, this is not the place for you.

Now, off to “lead” the worship service at my beautiful, wonderful, bride-of-Christ-in-this-place church.

Ricky,

[How do you scripturally validate your stand that there is an “us” and “them” in the Body of Christ?] I never said that. You have made assumptions about what I think it means to lead, based on what I can only guess is your own experience of leaders who have led badly.

I think I’m done answering you point for point. My last thought is that you have gotten a lot more respectful as you’ve responded. I applaud that.

I really only need two very significant Scriptures, which I remain convinced you are totally mis-understanding. I look at Romans 12:8 and the CLEAR assertion by Paul that those of us who have been called to lead (which, again, I NEVER implied made somebody better than somebody else) are to lead diligently, and I look at Ephesians 4:11-13 (filled with nouns which you seem to think are verbs) to know that I, as a pastor, am called to lead in my church, and that your seeming assertion that no one is called to lead another in the church is simply untenable.

Thanks again for the exchange. In the past you have simply complained and vented and then gone away. This time you engaged. Although we still disagree, I applaud you for that.

Todd, thanks for letting us get off track. I think it might have actually been productive.

rickey, oh no you did not offend me.

Thank you, Mark, for getting us back to the main question, “What does it mean to tell the church?” and pointing us to the excellent resources and help at Peacemaker Ministries.  Speciifcally, download the article “The Biblical Basis for Leader-Led Discipline” by David Edling at http://www.peacemaker.net.  The article is relevant for both elder led and congregational polity.  Blessed are the peacemakers!