What to do about a Sr. Pastor who seriously lacks administrative skills? Our staff of 10 suffers through 3-4 hour long meetings with no agendas. Vision casting is done by looking at the previous years services.  Over the last year, the staff is blindsided by 2 hirings “that just happened.” The teamwork of the staff is able to keep the ship afloat, but it is very taxing.  Yes, many have talked directly to the Sr. Pastor about specific issues - with no changes. The congregation has little idea about this issue as they do not have a working relationship with him. Truly, this man is a man of God and walks what he talks, but administratively, we suffer.

The issues you spoke about always seem to stem from the same thing: clear communication of realistic expectations that provide a basis for accountability. It places the resposibility to a large degree on the shoulders of the staff member to understand what is reasonably expected of him, to know that will provide accountability for him in evaluation and whether or not he is willing to accept the positionon that basis. Where the senior or lead pastor fits into this mix is in providing whatever resource necessary to insure the staff members success at their position within a reasonable period of time. Hope this is helpful.

I thought I would just add a personal word of testimony, not advice.  I have just come through two churches where I have felt completely betrayed.  In the second, which just ended a few weeks ago, I was being hired as the Worship Pastor of a church of 2,500 in California.  After an extended period of candidacy, which included the pastor telling me to pack up my things from Florida, the music committee decided I was not right for the job.  The situation was complicated because of the church’s tradition of paying all band members, the entrenched system and philosophy, and the many independent contractors (lighting, sound, instrumental music, etc.) that did not want a boss.  The pastor was not knowledgeable enough about either the particular church culture, or the technical music issues to know the difference.

After going back to Florida, we decided to move to California anyway on our own dime, since we had no job left in Florida.  After avoiding Hurricane Frances by 3 hours, we arrived in California, and the pastor began an extended period of communication with me to persuade me to come, in spite of the negative attitudes and entrenched culture of the 30 year band, and others.  He assured me that he was confident that I was exactly what they needed and that if I had the humility to come and work with these people, love them and be patient with change, it would be successful, because he would stand behind me no matter what happened.  I expressed my concern that my work would be sabotaged on every hand. 

We put them off for quite some time, but finally decided that perhaps the Lord would use us to change the overall spirit and arrogance that was there over time with love, with the support of the new senior pastor.

After two months on the job, and encountering resistance to literally everything, but working hard with love and patience, and humility to all the other powers and talent, my wife and I were called in for an evaluation, and informed that it wasn’t working out.  The pastor had given all those under me a chance to evaluate my performance for the 2 months, and they had concluded (surprise, surprise) that they did not want me around.  So he caved to their pressure, and let me go.

This was a total surprise.  I was literally squeezed between the pastor, who said I wasn’t changing things fast enough, and the admin pastor (interim music) who said I was rehearsing them to death, when I added a half hour to ONE rehearsal.

So I was given 1 weeks severance a month before Christmas, and not even a single correspondence from the pastor since that time, even to my emails.  I’m thankful that I did not show anger and disrespect to the pastor, although I have had to deal with anger in my own heart and life.

I must confess that these two experiences have left me in a very vulnerable spot, financially, as well as in my heart for ministry.  I am seeking the Lord to help me with the cynical and distant feeling I have toward the church.  We are taking 6 months to make a living elsewhere, and try to heal from the hurt that this has been to me and my family.

Forgive me for this very personal and lengthy testimony, but I thought it might perhaps help to shed light on some things that are going on within the church body at large, and perhaps help others to avoid the same kind of hurt that we have had.

When the time comes to dismissing or firing someone it should not be a surprise to the person being let go. It is our responsibility as leadership to describe our expectations clearly to those we hire with a timeline up front as to how long it takes to learn the job and begin doing it fully themselves. During this training time the leadership must ensure proper feedback to the new hire that guides him or her to being successful in meeting leadership expectations. This feedback should continue throughout their stay. If this is done properly the new hire will know if their performance is up to par or not. This open feedback allows for discussion between both parties as to what should be done to correct a deficiency or to reinforce those things that are being done well. The hard part for many leaders is the ability to be honest in their evaluations and the lack of this honesty is what leads to shock and hard feeling when fired.

JR says:
After 18 years of being a pastor, here is my comment:

1. Keep it simple
2. Attack the problem, not the person
3. Have a senior board member do it
4. Be generous in comp. pay

My comment: looks good, but #3 looks like it could be cowardice.  Esp. if the person feels slighted, and comes to you for help/support/understanding.

...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247

I was intrigued by the pastor who called in a wife of an ineffective employee. I wonder how often things could be resolved if we involved a spouse earlier in the discussions.

I know of a case where a pastor of a new church was not only inflating figures for attendance and calling, etc., for an offsite sending organization, but also, sadly, embezzling money. When the wife was involved in reviewing the performance, she was shocked at her husband’s lies about attendance and work put forth, and horrified at the suspected embezzlement. She herself insisted on his resignation and insisted on repaying all the money (with help from family). Had she been involved earlier, the situation might have been reversed (although an embezzling pastor is probably in the wrong vocation). Certainly the damage to the new church would have been limited. Don’t know what happened to the marriage!

I also know of an associate pastor who got caught up in discouragement which resulted in laziness and unwillingness to initiate anything new. His wife was unaware of the expectations for him, and that he was failing in his role. She only saw the decline in the quality of his work, but he blamed opposition, people moving away, etc.

When she heard the perspective of the senior pastor, she saw clearly her husband’s failings and was able to light a fire under him. He improved, his ministry prospered, and he went on eventually to successful ministry elsewhere. Had this not happened, he likely would have been released.

I disagree with Greg Fell’s advice on using a “self out” method.  His approach can force a self-induced elimination due to a simple raising or lowering of the job expectation bar.  This is a great manipulator tool practiced in the corporate world perhaps but I find it unethical in the Ministry that is reaching a lost and dying world for Jesus Christ.  No one can live up to the expectations of another who is seeking to find fault with them...and then saying, “see, they finally see that they are not living up to the expectation.”

When the person who is forced out (under the guise of self elimination) realizes the noose tightening was a sham ... and passes that information to peers, I ask, how long before everyone else starts wondering when they are next.

Dave

I have read many of the comments concerning the firing of a church staffer. I’ve been in ministry for nineteen and one-half years and I pastored for eight of those years. I am presently a member and associate minister of a very large church here in the Houston area. 
I would like to offer this suggestion. Many times we hire individuals in the church based upon the appearance of their resume and there references, without consideration as to whether or not the person is anointed of God to perform the tasks in which we are hiring them to perform.  Education is good and that’s an important factor, but I have discovered that when one is anointed to do a work for God he or she can be trained to perform the detailed duties if the church would simply implement a training program for the individuals we place on our staff. Let’s remember that the church is a Christ-centered institution and does operate under the principles of love and acceptance. However, there is also the business side of the church that must remember that the Bible reminds us that,"God’s business is done decent and in order.” Train the person not only in ethics, and etiquite but also in the skills required to perform their job.  The secular world spends countless resources for training, where as in the church we feel that once we hire someone to do a job, that this is the end of the process.  Training on a continuous basis will eleminate the need to dismiss someone who in the eyes of the congregation has become an important and vital member of the family and the staff.  Training! Training! and more Training!  Hopefully after we invest properly in the lives of our staff members, we will see God bring forth a marvelous return.

Russell Reed
Houston, Tx.

As someone who has been on the “letting go end” after 12 years of faithful and diligent service in one position at one church, I would like to add to the relationship comments.  I was not a “Sr. Pastor” but rather worked under one who’s shortcoming (in my opionion) was exactly that...relationships.  He was not gifted in developing those either with his staff or with his congregation hence the reason for 4 staff changes in 8 years.  I on the other hand felt called and led to stay on.  But eventually, I felt led to move on as well because I reached the point of severly missing a relationship with my pastor.  When I shared that with him (over several conversations) he began to feel threatend and therefore trained the “dogs” on me.  Although, I choose to take a high road and voluntarily resign in the best intrest of the church and my family (not doing so would have brought on even more hurt to the church and my family), it does leave a staff member without a “church family relationship” and how many of God’s called ministers are falling to the side of the Samritan road when their calling is real?  I would refer those who have found themselves displaced to the Ministering to Ministers Foundation or http://www.mtm.org.  It’s an ecumenical/non-profit counseling organization to help displaced ministers.  I do not work or counsel for them, but I am a beneficiary of their work and encourage those who are displaced to contact them.  I know that there are those instances when it’s time for someone to move on...I was one of them.  But I also think that pastors should not get to much of a “CEO complex” that it ruins lives, families, and churches when they handle such delicate situations.  Afterall, we are on the same team.

Sound like a tough situation.  Having read all of the comments, and there were many, none of these comments makes your situation any eaiser.  Nor will my own.  Each situation is unique and if you decide to let this staff member go there will be hurt feelings, no four step process, or any other process will prevent that from happening.  I especially would not take advice from a guy telling you to buy his book.
Follow your gut and ask God for guidance.  Avoid telling the Minister he is not called into ministry (that will shatter him, plus what if your wrong), God will let him know that in time.  DO NOT INVOLVE THE SPOUSE.  I am on staff as a youth Pastor in TN and I can tell you if a Senior Pastor informed my wife of all my short comings, she would not take it well nor would I.  My wife and I have an open line of communication, she does not need some else to tell her my faults she already knows them.  I am not sure that is even ethical.  You could potentially cause marriage problems.  Not only are you firing him from his job but you are hurting his marriage wonderful. 
Here is my advice don’t listen to us, you are God’s man, he will tell you what to do.

AS a staff member this question is very important for me. What and why are the reasons that give my senior permission to let me go or fire me?

A person commented that performance should not be a reason for dismissal. I would have to disagree with this comment. For all pastors our primary concern in ministry needs to be th e well being of the church, not our personal comfort.

As staff guys we need to be willing to take a step of faith and let our senior guys know that because we value the church and it health we give them permission to let us go if that is what they feel is best for the church.

The church I am presently in suffers because neither I or my senior have any gifts in worship. Because of this our church has been unable to break the 250 barrier.

Having discussed this with my senior the next person hired will have worship leading as part of his job description,

What do i do in the mean time. I am presently resigning from my local church. Not because i want to leave or because of difficulty with the senior or poor relationships. But because it is what is best for the church.

While i will use this break to further my education, it must be noted that as shepherds to Gods flock we will be held accountable for how we led.

Sometimes that means making hard decisions to bring about the most growth for our church. So if a staff guy cant cut it, it may not mean that he is not meant for ministry, it may just be that his time at your church has come to an end and God has somewhere where their gifts and abilities can be greater used

Hope my ramblings
have helped.

RW

I’ve been in Music / Worship Ministry for over 25 years. 10 1/2 years was spent in a single church. During that term the music ministry grew and diversified greatly.

Without warning, 2 deacons came into my office one afternoon and gave me 48 hours to clear out my office. No reason given other than “lost confidence in his(my) ability to lead”. It was nothing immoral or illegal; I did not abuse my position or church property. This was stated in a memo between the personnel committee and deacons. Where was the sr. pastor in this? Not sure. He did admit to me that he was involved with it.

That happened 14 months ago. God has been gracious to me and my family as we have been able to serve a long-term interim at a wonderful church, and now are in a second interim.

I’ve had to get a second part-time secular job to help ends meet and have learned how to live on 2/5 of my previous income. I’m trusting God to deliver me into a great church that is looking for a creative worship leader.

Hurt? Sure. Anger? Absolutely. Confusion? Oh, yeah. Answers to my questions? None.

Reading from all of you has been helpful, in that I know I’m not alone. Thanks for this place.

Yours...and His,

TAB

I, too have been on the ugly side of being “let go” from a staff position.  Actually, more than one. Now, I know in todays society it isn’t popular to do this, but I’m not a trendy sort of guy.  Twice, of the three times I was let go, it was the proper thing to happen.  I simply wasn’t doing a good job, and I knew it.  I tried to improve on my lack of vision, but simply wasn’t getting anywhere.  The third time wasn’t my fault.  I had learned a great deal from my two “tune ups” if you will, and was making real progress.  The choir was growing, we started a drama ministry, brought in some electronic multimedia helps, started an outreach, and began to have monthly fellowships.  These are all things that was expected out of my leadership in my two tune up positions, but simply lacked the vision, or contacts, and /or knowledge to get them done.  In this great third position, I had accomplished every goal set for me by the pastor, and then some within 7 months, of a years list of things to do.  Of course, ijn every ministry, you are going to have your detractors...anyone who says they don’t have any, aren’t in ministry.  One such family was NOT happy with the fact that we had accomplished all these things, because they didn’t want them.  Thus, the backbiting began.  Now, I want everyone to understand that I followed the job description to a “T”.  Everything on the description came from the pastor and personnel committee.  I was completely subordinate to the pastor, as he is the one who gave me the time frames...actually a little earlier on each one.  I was never late to the office, I never missed a Sunday.  I took my vacations from Monday to Saturday, in one week increments as to make sure I was back for the ensuing Sunday.  I did everything that was required of me, and then some.  I even took on the Senior citizen’s group, which were an awesome blessing to us, because they were considered “dead weight” and other people couldn’t be bothered with them.  However, because of one family, within 6 months of God’s handiwork of building a strong vibrant ministry, the pastor called me into his office and asked for my resume.  His reasoning for asking for it, “some families in the church feel like you haven’t lived up to our expectations we set for you, and I agree with them.” Talk about devastation!  After talking with him at length, I said I had to pray about it.  He said prayer was already accomplished, therefore I didn’t need to do so.  Please tender your resignation today by 5.  So I did.  I typed it out, much like this, although I went into much greater detail than I have here.  After I finished it, I included a personal request for 6 months severnce to allow me time to seek a new position.  I was called back to me with the pastor, and the deacons, who were unscripturally running the church.  Before I went to see them, the pastor invited me into his office and gave me a sheet to sign that read absolutely nothing like my resignation did.  He handed me a piece of paper, and said as soon as you sign this, I will yake you to see the deacons to discuss your severance package.  I signed it, not knowing what they planned to do with it.  We went to the deacons, and they handed me a two months, take it or leave it package.  This after I had just had a house built.  I was crushed financially.  The next Sunday, the pastor read his letter, that I had to sign, to the congregation, and said I wrote it.  He also said that I only asked for two months severance.  Now, ladies and gentlemen, I am all for peace in the church, and going quietly...I had dome it when I was at fault, and rightly let go in my tune up positions...but I cannot, nor does scripture teach, that I should allow lies to be spread...especially from the pulpit...so you can probably guess that I didn’t in this situation.  I fielded hundreds of phone calls after morning service...seriously...HUNDREDS.  I started to right the lies by saying that the letter read wasn’t written by me, and that I asked for 6 months severance.  All of those asked me for a copy of my resignation, to which I said to ask the pastor.  They did, and he said that he didn’t have it anymore, but that what he read was a condensed version of it.  So, when they asked again, I mailed each of them a copy.  Why?  Did I think it would hurt the church?  I thought it might, but my reputation is important as well.  No one should sit by in idle and allow someone to massacre there integrity, calling it taking the high road when your livlihood depends on you integrity.  After all was said and done, I ended up with three months severance, which was a blessing, but not a big enough one to keep me frolm financial ruin.  It took a while, but the lies of others have forced me into bankruptcy...a death curse for ministry.  I did find another position, but I wasn’t able to keep up rent here, and a house payment there.  The house wouldn’t sell, so I had to file to keep from losing everything.  The toll on my life was substantial, but the toll on my wife and children was beyond words or measure.  My wife is on two anti-depressants.  My children won’t go to church.  And after our next business meeting, when I tell them that I’m filing for bankruptcy, I probably won’t be welcome back.  People are cruel.  Ministry isn’t up to a person, or a job description, or a pastor...it’s a God thing.  I know what I am supposed to do in ministry because the handbook is clearing spelled out.  As long as people are running things, it doesn’t matter what the Bible says, or even if there is a clearly defined job description, or not.  if they want to get rid of you...they are going to get rid of you!