There is a church that I used to attend and have since left.  The situation is… The pastor and the pastors father are elders of the church.  The pastors father was consulting a married young woman privatly about a disorder and eventually made a pass at her.  This has remained a private matter and has never been brought to light.  I only know of the situation due to a good friend who is very close to the woman.  It caused the pastors father to quietly step down from the eldership, but the young lady is now on her death bed due to the undue stress of this situation.  The matter has never been confronted and church discipline never carried out.  However, in every other case, church discipline has been a big issue in this church.  I guess my question is, should the situation be brought to light and should the pastors father apologize in front of the entire church or not?

Recently the Pastor of a church became “involved” with a female member of the church who was less than half his age. When his wife found out about it, she made him leave home until she felt that his appologies were geniune.  That took about 4 days.  He then stood before his congregation in what was meant to be a time of confession and repentence.  During this church-wide meeting he did appologize and preceeded to tell them what his steps to restoration would be.  He shared several scriptures on why he should be forgiven, that he was the C.E.O. of the church and could not be fired, announced that he and wife would be away for a few days of intense counseling, and told the congregation that he would take a 4 month sabbatical.  In the meantime, he will sit in the services while guest speakers deliver the messages.  Should he be calling the shots?  Or should he be submitted to someone or others who give him the requirements?  This is not a denominational church.  And, this is not the first time.

Response to When Pastors Make Mistakes -
It seems to me that there is much assumed in the pastor firing a secretary.  I also would assume that the pastor has been given the authority of the church to make staffing decesions not related to the rumors.  If this is the case, he may know something that is a private matter staffing wise that led to his decesion.  In today’s culture staffing is very sensitive so it is improper to assume that he made a mistake.  If given the authority by the church, good counsel should include confidence building for the pastor, even when situations seem to be in the wrong.  I am not advocating dictatorship, but shepherdship.  Biblically God has called pastors to protect the sheep, not follow the sheep as the culture seems to be demanding.  I think there is much more that would need to be asked to answer this question.  Thanks for listening.

I recently had the opposite happen to me where I was being pressed to keep someone out of the church.  It seems that three years ago (before I came as pastor) a member made some rather serious charges against the then present pastor and two other women in the church.  Church district leadership along with the church board met together and concluded that the accuser was in the wrong.  The church, then, issued a letter of request for the accuser to never attend the church.  The accuser complied but now (three years later) has begun to attend.  As present pastor I was asked to immediately deal with it.  Since rational, quick judgement and action are not my way I chose to research.  I also promised the board that should the accuser attend one more time that I would pay a visit and deal with the issue.  When the accuser did attend on a recent Wednesday night the offended showed up quickly (the offended had not been attending and was now causing her own set of troubles in the church.) I would not rationally act that night toward the accuser until I had all facts together and had (first of all) ‘met with Jesus’).  The offended threatened to stop coming to the church and I was hard pressed to approach the accuser.  Within the next two days (after district communicatiton, conference with the accuser and time with Jesus) I took the appropriate action and asked the accuser not to attend.  As a result of my slow to judge and act on the situation the offended (who had been causing her own set of new troubles for my ministry and the church) now has left along with her husband and four children.  I understand that there are some thing that we must act quickly on but as pastors we must also use wisdom, prayer and caution when asking someone to leave a ministry position or from attendance.

I am a pastor of a small congregation church and have fellowship with one particular church in my area.  Our two churches have recently found favor with one another.  Most recently on my visit to the church my wife noticed one of the staff members making uncomfortable eye contact with her, which she spoke of on the way home.  The day following this same gentleman called our home and told my wife that she looked very sexy on Sunday and to keep this conversation between her and him. 

Would it be more appropriate for me to bring this concern to the pastor of whom I fellowship with or rather call the gentleman directly???

Our church has a personnel committee, of which I am the chairman. The pastor has no authority to hire or fire any employee. He can only make recommendations. After prayer, and thorough investigation of the circumstances a decision will be made. Termination of ministerial staff may only be done by recommendation of the personnel committee to the church body which requires a 80% vote.

There are many books available on line on Labor Law. Every church would be well advised to have one on hand. Churches are not exempt from state & federal labor laws and many churches have found themselves entangled in labor related suits in the past twenty years. As we all know, we today live in a very litgeous society and wrongful termination suits can (and have) finacially ruin a church and it’s ministry. Even if the termination was justified it is very expensive to fight these suits.

Many states have poor labor laws as regards employee rights. In many of those states employers may terminate an employee without cause. Keep in mind that in many cases federal law supercedes state law and often these types of suits are filed in U.S. District Court.

Before a church terminates anyone today they had better be sure that they have crossed all the T’s & dotted all the i’s.

God teaches us that we should not take our brother to civil court but to bring the matter before the church. However the reality is that more and more churches are finding themselves in wrongful termination litigation because of ignorance of the law or the wrong idea that they are exempt from the law.

The Pastor’s are God’s chosen, not to make an excuse for them.  I happen to be a Pastor, I made mistakes after mistakes, and I really tried hard to be perfect, and with-out error to a minimum.  I found out something, it wont work, the only we are perfect is through the maturity that Christ has given us, we are no more babes, but still able to sin and fall so short of the glory of God.  It may seem that I am trying to make an excuse for my mistakes,and the mistakes of others, but not so.  In Romans 8:1 has it that there is therefore NOW no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus!  We need to know that we condem ourselves, not the Father.  I suffered a Church split, and it just about took my life, I know that God stood with me.  I felt it was all my fault, a burden was on my shoulder you wouldn’t believe.  This happened about six months ago, now I feel I’m healed!  I still hurt because I loved them so, I guess they couldn’t comprehend a Pastor’s heart of love.  So comfort the Pastor that made a mistake.  All of us have!  We’ll have many more.  He’s human.  Comfort the Pastor and pray that God will give him to repent, and revive his relationship with the sheep that was allowed to go, and was wrongfully accused.  He might not know how to re-unite the bond, pray for direction from the Lord, and that he seeks the Lord’s face about the situation.  Imagine how I feel.  The Lord said the congregation I had was not for me, yet I still hurt every time I think of how cold humanity is when a Brother or Sister falls.  Repent and forgive, and pray for solice and closure. All in the name of Jesus!  We’re all still growing in grace.  Pastor Alice with love.

Wow, what can I say except conflict elicits a response!  When considering all of the items in the situation, I think it is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD for a Pastor to be given the sole authority to hire and fire.  I was on staff at a church of about 200 as youth minister and was “asked to resign” nine months after I was hired. 

The worship pastor and myself were hired on at the same time.  He was fired after four months because the pastor was given misinformation.  The pastor then fabricated three specific stories about him and his family and exoected me to go along with them. 

I refused and was asked to resign 5 months later.  Loyalty, honesty, and integrity mean a lot more to me than $30,000 a year.  Needless to say, Ifeel like the guy above who was fired after ten years of service to his church for no real reason.  I have served my denomination faithfully for the better part of a decade. 

When the district leadership was notified of the situation they took the usual “every church is sovereign” which translates to “if you are not the senior pastor… too bad, for he is god and there is no other”.  So I turned in my credentials.

As I see it, I have a $40,000 education, love to read God’s word and meet with Him, but think that church is mostly a joke now.  That man was allowed to put two men, their wives, and a total of six children out on the street to protect his fifedom of monarchist legalism.  The District Leadership’s position seems to be one of “too bad, we are praying for you”.  WOW, what honorable men of God we are.

The guy I worked for was also one of those “lay not a hand against God’s anointed” parrot’s whenever something did not go his way.  Funny how the only people that was mentioned about in scrioture were the kings of Israel, not the priests.  As I recall, God would deal with them individually.  If they were not right when they approached Him on the day of atonement, His hand was layed upon the “anointed” and they were pulled out by the rope tied to their ankle. 

Anyway, very disenchanted with church right now and disenfranchised with religion…

the secretary gets my vote.

and to the guy who had a staff member at another church hit on his wife… if you need to ask us what to do about that situation it is already too late.  Call the guy, tell him he will not call yourself again if he values eating meals without a straw, and then call his pastor/boss and tell him what you just told the guy.  Pretty open and shut.

Janet wrote: “I haven’t said a word to any of the staff nor contacted them about what has happened, but I wonder if I should write them and the personnel committee a letter letting them know what has happened from my viewpoint. I don’t want to go back to work there, but I feel I was wrongfully terminated. I literally “shook the dust from my feet” when I left. What should I do?”

I would say, yes of course, tell them!  Why should it be a secret?  These are your broithers and sisters.  Lean on each other.

...Bernie

I sympathize with fired church staff members.  After over 30 years in the church, of which 16 were on staff, I was fired, not for my work ethics (I was told my performance and service to the church was excellent)but for my differences with the Sr. Pastor.  After exhausting the avenues I felt would bring healing, it remained extremely difficult to remain at the church, and I packed up my office and departed 3 days after I was fired. 

This pastor had 98% of what it takes to serve successfully - it was the 2% that caused the church and staff untold damage.  When a leader becomes insecure and turns his eyes from faith in what God has called him to, he begins to see others as enemies instead of the brothers and sisters God surrounded him with to love and support him - weaknesses and all. 

Because of his insecurity and personal weakness, he removed the Exec. Pastor, 2 Board members, the janitor and Office Manager/Exec. Secretary (myself) and replaced us with others that would be considered loyal to him.  The rest of the Board failed in their God-appointed task to protect the staff and church; they knew the problems that exsited but feared confronting them as they lacked faith in God that He would see them through it if they had to ask the Sr. Pastor to leave.

Many times Sr. Pastors cut off other leaders, staff and even church members because of suspicion and pride.  Why? Because they have missed God and are acting out of their own weakness - serving their own vision instead of Him.  They use those close to them as long as it serves their purpose - not viewing others properly as the gifts God has given to him and the church. When a staff member questions or doesn’t appear loyal (as defined by the Sr. Pastor) they are removed.

Scripture tells us that if we truly love our brother we will seek his good.  A true friend will come to you in love and will not let your weaknesses get the the best of you in the hopes that you would recognize the error and lay that area of your life in repentance and faith before the Lord.  The love God gives us for one another is unconditional, not performance based - it says I love you even if you reject me.  If you truly love somone you will not compromise what is true just to live without tension.  It takes an act of faith to do this because it will purpose you to put everything that is important to you on the line, knowing you may lose it all, because the person you approach has the power to fire. You must remember your life is in God’s hands, not the leader’s.

It has been 4 1/2 years since this problem reared it’s ugly head.  I watched as one leader after another was dismissed, until finally I too was targeted.  Today, almost 3 years since my firing, I still wait in faith that it will be resolved.  The Sr. Pastor was asked to leave by the Board one year after I was fired - he had continued on his rampage and was threatening to remove yet another pastor.  Instead of working through the problems, he fled and moved out of state. 

Nine month’s later I was approached by one of the other pastors who admitted he and the Board had been deceived by the Sr. Pastor and were sorry - but he could not take any personal responsibility for what happened to me (or the others).  Eventually in a later e-mail communication he admitted he had failed us and did not possess the personal strength to do anything about it and would carry that wound to his grave.

To that my husband and I replied:

“Just at the moment that you confessed that you believed you had failed us and that you believed that you had no strength to do anything other than ask us for our forgiveness from your heart, that is the very moment that you began to move forward through this struggle and trial and believe us now when we say that true victory is just within reach for all of us.  We understand how you now find yourself bearing up with trying to lead the church and bring healing after the Sr. Pastor has thrown off his mantle and taken flight, leaving a wake of destruction in his path.  We know just how hard the pieces will be to put back together.  Jesus never said following Him would be easy so I guess we were all forewarned but somehow it always takes us so much my surprise - it walks up and knocks our knees out from under us.

We believe that God is allowing us to walk through this time of extreme pain.  We believe that there is something so important and precious for us and other leaders to learn by enduring this time.  We need to allow this pain to accomplish its intended purpose, and not try to escape it or short-circuit it.  We fully believe that God is trying to sift and prepare the hearts of those that will lead His church so that she will be able to fully face the trials and hardships that only God knows lie ahead.

When Jesus’ body lay in the tomb and all hope seemed lost, the disciples (especially Peter who denied Him three times)came to grips with themselves as mere men, knowing that when it really counted they failed.  But then the wonderful power of God manifested itself!  Christ arose and returned to them - freely forgiving and loving them unconditionally.  He then sent them all out with the greatest commission of all - to take His love into every corner of the earth.  And you know, they were extremely effective, because His message is still alive today!  We totally believe that our loving Heavenly Father will also bring a miracle of renewed ministry, life and power into your pierced heart too.  Our failure can NEVER hold back the power of God - He uses our failures to facilitate freedom!  That’s the miracle.

So here we are . . . where do we go from here?  Let us give our answers to this question:

First, we need to get together - we need to wrap our arms around you and cry the deep cry of true love and repentance.  Let’s not put this off - though it may be hard, it is so necessary.  Let’s make ample time for it.

Second, we need to continue the process that has begun.  We still need to speak the truth to one another and lay out the hurts and not be afraid to talk until everything has been smothered in God’s love and the fire of bitterness, pain and unforgiveness is extinquished.

Third, we need to be humble.  We need to own up to our shortfalls.  We need to take ownership and responsibility for our mistakes.  We are just flesh - all of us.  We will never be perfect - but we can be forgiven and learn new ways.

Fourth, we need to let God’s light shine into every area, even if we feel like running, even if we think it will blind us, even if it make us squirm or embarrassed.  It is the only way that darkness will vanish.  What has happened should not be hidden or kept secret.

Fifth, we need to confess.  We need to verbally confess what has happened.  Sounds scary, but letting the truth out for all to hear will stop confusion and contention in its tracks and bring comfort to others that have been hurt along the way - some you would never think would be affected because they have hidden it so well - thinking something was wrong with them.

Sixth, we need to let the faith of God’s church rise to this occasion.  When leaders are truly humble, truthful and transparent, the rest of the church family sees that they are just like them - that leaders make mistakes too.  This may sound even scarier, but it is so powerful because this is where the church will shine.  She will step up and forgive, she will rally to your side, she will be full of hope and faith again, and she will be set free to do the work of the ministry.

Seventh, we need to never forget what has happened.  We need to mull it over in our heart and mind and give our undivided attention to the life lesson that the Lord is shaping not only our lives through, but the very life of the church through.  It is a story that we tell to our children and they to theirs.  If it is forgotten, we are bound to repeat the mistakes again.

We have faith that we are at the doorstep to something wonderful, something powerful and something that will bring the church back to life!  We don’t know where we will be when all this has been completed, but God does.  All we know is that we are the vessels of human clay that He has decided to use at this time and for whatever purpose He wants.  If this is actually the very reason that He has decided to use us in time and space - to accomplish just one thing He wanted done, we have surrendered and laid everything else aside that we held so tightly to so it can happen. What shelf He puts us on when He is finished for the moment is His decision.  We are only called to offer ourselves for His use, wherever that may be.  Who can tell if we will be called to place stones side by side in the same foundation like we once did, for God has many places under construction all over this earth and He is the Master Builder.

So how do we end?  We end at the beginning . . .  We love you.  Did you hear our voices when you read that?  If not, listen again . . . WE LOVE YOU.  Come now, let’s reason together and set the time and place to begin again.”

Sadly, over 1 1/2 years we have not had a response to our offer to get together and work out our relationships. We find it unbelievable that this would occur in the Body of Christ.  Surely this is cause to grieve the Holy Spirit.

I would appreciate any comments any of you might have after reading this post.

I think Ken’s comments were good.  If there was a mistake it should be admitted and dealt with so the church can move on.  I also want to make a point to other posters that, although I agree the pastor should not be a dictator, for I have been in a church like that, he has scriptural authority to lead the church.  I have not found one scripture yet where the deacons told the pastors how to do ministry.  Understand I am not advocating any pastor on an ego trip trying to build his little kingdom.  “Pride comes before a fall”.  But we must be very careful how we respond and treat those in authority, even when they make mistakes.  The scripture is plain that we are to submit to authority.  True submission does not happen until we disagree with that authority.  It is God who calls all men not men who do the calling.  Jesus said, “What business is it of yours of how I deal with my servants.” God will take care of the situation.  Our job is to be obedient to His word even in the worst of situations.  God has not abandoned us.  Vengence is mine said God. I causes me sorrow to hear how badly you have been treated by “pastors” and I’m sorry those things happened to you.  I encourage you to draw closer to God and He will draw closer to you.  Don’t give up.

I have situation I would like to discuss. It happen to my husband who was the Youth and music minister. We had a new pastor and his family come in. Our church was wonderful on welcoming him and his family. His oldest kid was having trouble leaving her old friends so our youth group really reach out to her. A year went by and all was good. Until the girls of the youth group started having problems. The pastor’s kid being the cause of it. THe problem grew, the whole youth group were having problems with their daughter. And the pstors wife got involve and upset alot of the parents. The things that occurred happen outside of church. The new pastor started calling my husband for advice on how to handle or kids (like they were the bad ones) To make a long story short, my husband and him disagreed with how things were being handled. My husband try to explain to the pastor to address the kids in their sin. And the pastor thought it was best to address their behavior. Our whole youth group and parents of teens were upset with the pastor. One Wednesday night our new pastor even grab a kid by his clothes and said “Let’s take it out side” because the kid didn’t not want to have a meeting with him. (THe were lots of meetings) The situation is major drama and the focus of the church was not on God but teen issues. The pastor blew up on my husband for breaking him and the kid up. He blew up on my husband for “Not being loyal to HIM” The church had a townhall meeting with the superintendent, the meeting did not go anywhere. The new pastor lied about a few things. And would not tell the Seven people who ask why or what he did that wasn’t loyal. The church is now divided. The people who do not know of everthing that was going on(the seniors of the church) and the teens and parents. The church that was 150 is now 50. My husband’s sevice which was voluntered, is now at work with another church. He ias a year a way on being ordained. My question is… Can anyone help me? I am having a hard time trusting. Pastors, politics, authority. I have not found any other to get help with my issues so far. This all has happen two months ago.