Thanks, Ricky, for your positive advice, as always.  Sometimes I wonder… why do you continue to read here?  This is the type of thing we discuss here:  innovation, growth, and how to deal with the tensions that these bring; and believe it or not, it is helpful to many people who are, as you put it, into “empire building” (some prefer the word “kingdom building”.)

I’m just not sure why you keep coming back and reading these topics that you know you won’t agree with.  Is it just to be a wet blanket?

Todd

I know you do, Ricky, but I think your firehose is pointed at the wrong contingent.  That’s where you and I (and most of the others here) differ. 

I view the people here as people who are earnesting trying to build the kingdom by introducing people to Christ however they can.

You view them as egomainiacs who are using gimmicks and schemes to further their own hoarding mentality to continue their empire-building.  (most all of these words/phrases you used above).

We see them as two entirely different groups of people.  You are passionate.  And so are they.

So continue your work, passionately, where God can use you.  And let other servants who are dealing with these issues, find help and encouragement here.

This forum (blog) prefers to look at them as kingdom workers trying their best to fulfill the call of God on their lives.

It’s just a different way of seeing the same people.

I guess, since I’m the blog moderator, if I see a fire, I’ll call the fire department.

Todd

[comment deleted by moderator]

BeHim writes:

Todd, why do you keep deleting my posts?

[comment by Todd:  Because you’re in my face, BeHim… I’ve extended more grace to Ricky, you and others who bring up the same things over and over again, and take every post in the same direction; down the same road.  It’s just not what this blog was meant to be; and it’s not what I will allow it to become.]

BeHim writes:

You’re rules are “No name calling” and you delete one of Ricky’s posts from earlier today for name calling (shyster or silly or something like that) and now you call Ricky, a user btw, a wet blanket and this is acceptable?

[another comment by Todd:  I think I gave some pretty specific examples of the kind of language Ricky has used here and in many other posts on my blog, over and over again… and I’m just tired of it.  And yes, I did call him a ‘wet blanket’ because I don’t know how else to describe it.  As I’ve said, I’ve extended much grace… much freedom… must ‘airtime’ if you will to what Ricky (and you) have had to say.

There comes a point where you just have to say ‘enough’.  And I feel like I’ve said ‘enough’ enough already. 

Our Blogging Maturity and Etiquette 101 post starts out:

“Each blog you visit is the internet “home” of someone.  You wouldn’t dare walk into a home and run your mouth at the host. It’s inappropriate to do on blogs as well. It’s just ugly and you end up looking stupid. Don’t do it. It’s immature.”

That’s what I think is continuing to happen here; and I’m done with all the ‘back and forth’ on the rules.  If you can’t accept and/or abide by them (or feel that you constantly have to push them or test them); then it’s time to move on.  That’s where I’m at guys.  That’s as honestly, as tactfully, and as lovingly as I can put it. 

Todd

Is it wrong for me to suggest you should apologize and stick to your own rules?

Come on Todd.  Be fair and kind!

I’ve suggested the idea of them putting their heads together to start their own blog on numerous occasions… but there’s no interest.  Even offered to help promote it… and finally even offered to pay for it; but there’s been no interest.  :(

Oh well… we’ll get through this.

OK… back to the ‘positive’ discussion… I liked the comment that Ed made:

“Technology is either a tool or a tail. It has incredible potential as a tool to communicate aspects of God’s Kingdom. But it also has the disastrous potential to be the tail that wags the dog. A dog that quickly turns into a pit bull!”

I’ve been in services before where technology was used ‘because it was there’.  Every been to the point where you use technology just because you have it?  I think that’s a danger… and can actually be a hinderance to creativity.

Todd

True, Jim… and Ed gives some great examples of ‘free’ ways to be innovative at the full article over at Leadership Journal.  I think many times we just don’t take the time to think through what might be not only innovative, but effective.

I’ve been in a large church, very small churches and a medium size church.

In one of the smaller churches, another woman and I went to the pastor and said we wanted to start a Bible study.  His answer: “Great!  We’ll put it in the bulletin on Sunday!”

In the large church, I asked if we could at least have a potluck for singles (no expense to the church)...I got many answers, none of them indicated a “go for it”.

A larger church brings more opportunities for different ministries - but less freedom (it seems) for the Holy Spirit to work to bring a new ministry into being.

Being larger seems to mean more bureaucracy [without the emotional baggage: government characterized by specialization of functions (the board), adherence to fixed rules (the by-laws), and a hierarchy of authority (the system)].

Rich:

“As a pastor of a small but growing congregation we look forward to the time when we reach the maturity level and size where we can multiply into other areas through church planting. Our target is no larger than 4-500, so I agree with you on this.”

Thank you, Rich, for your thoughtful response.

Is the target number for multiplying written in your By-Laws or charter?  The reason I ask is that many people start out with a certain goal but, when the numbers are rising up to and past that number, the money increases, and the whispers in the ear that the ministry will suffer if you multiply come, you will find it hard to ignore the temptation to keep right on adding numbers.

However, if that goal is a set number, agreed upon by the congregation and written into the By-Laws, then you can better fend off the inevitable ego spikes that come with larger numbers.

I know of a ministry in Kansas that birthed 6 (I believe) fellowships based on the above idea.  But be forewarned, it takes a great deal of humility and the understanding that the Church is not ours but Christ’s and it is He who builds it.

Rich:

“However, with nearly 20 years ministry experience in churches ranging is size from under 100 to nearly 1000, I can testify to the fact that the tensions mentioned in the article have nothing to do with size. They exist in all sizes of churches where the leaders are working hard to effectively reach their communities for Christ.”

As one who has had years of experience on the staffs of at least two (2) organizations of 1,200 and over 5,000, I can tell you that I agree with your assessment as to the politics and tensions being fluid, as it relates to size, whether large or small.

However, there are two observations that I’ve seen in being in an organization that grew from 300 - 5,000+ in about 10 years.

1) The larger you become the more difficult it is to stay small in your own eyes and in the eyes of those who attend.  In addition, you become more detached relationally, which ends up with you losing touch with real people.

2) There is a protection in a large crowd.  What I mean is that most crowds in America come to services because of the quality of the music or the sermon or programs, and when you are able to satisfy their hunger, this “success” insulates you in a popularity that makes it hard to penetrate and from which difficult to resist the power of.

The key, I believe, that is Scriptural, is to stay small and be in a constant state of multiplication.  Jesus spent 3+ years giving ministry away to His disciples, never looking back.  Shouldn’t we do the same and trust that the Spirit of God knows how to lead the Church?

Rich:

“And yes, being ‘innovative, can be ‘an open door for all kinds of gimmicks and schemes.’ But it can also be a Spirit led movement through which many will come to know Christ as Savior. It takes prayer, wisdom and sensitivity to the Holy Spirit to discern the difference. But please don’t discount something as wrong simply because it is new or innovative.”

I read something recently that challenged me and I think is pertinent to this discussion.

“Programs abound where the Spirit doesn’t lead.”

Being “innovative” for the purpose of “reaching people for Christ” too often is the buzzphrase for “I want more numbers.” There’s a subtle line between the two.  To me, Spirit-led innovation is when God meets you where you’re at (physically, financially, etc.) and gives you wisdom on how to proclaim Him with what you have as if there’s no tomorrow.  Just like Paul in Athens and Jesus with the loaves and fishes.

In my opinion, innovation has taken some bum raps in the name of power and control.

So, be careful.  There are many who think they can resist the temptations that come with larger numbers, but few are able to stay small in their own eyes.

May we always be decreasing as He is increased!