I was just wondering how you (I guess you personally, and maybe Perry as well) would go about determining if “a critic” is actually pointing out something truthfully wrong about your methods or ministry?

In other words, should one always assume that anytime someone has criticism - that this is something that is detrimental and needs to be avoided?

Perhaps a critic is actually speaking truth, and therefore it’s not something that should be avoided in order to protect one’s mood, but should be valued as being corrective in nature.

Im certain that there are right and wrong ways of criticizing, but I wonder if self-preservation from all forms of “negativity” may actually be harmful and unbiblical.

Shouldn’t our ultimate response to any criticism be: “Lord, show me if it’s true”.  Im afraid too often we jump right to: “Lord forgive them for criticizing me”.

--Jim

Why do I do this to myself?

After reading the blog, I did a Google search to see what was out there about me.  Thankfully, I only found one place, but he was pretty angry at some comments I made when a guest on an NPR talk show.

I was tempted to write and try and help him find the context of my comments, but thought better of it.

And here’s the weird part - he even addressed me by saying something like “I’m sure you’ll find this because you’ll Google your name...” Well, he was right!  But my hope would be that this would not be out of vanity, but rather a desire to set the record straight.  But I think I’ll just pray that God will help this person past the anger and misconceptions and draw him to Himself in Christ.  Please do it, Lord!

Brian

PS - I’m REALLY glad my name isn’t Billy Graham or Rick Warren!

I am a young guy, and was relatively new to the blogging world when I discovered that there was a complete blog devoted to discussing how much I “suck.” It had pictures of me (a hideous donkey), and “my wife” (an even more hideous donkey’s backside). Fortunately, prior to responding I thought about the unbelievers who might happen upon either my blog or the blog dedicated to my suckage, and I chose to respond so graciously that the blog was eventually removed because the blogger got bored with my niceties.

The internet is a cool resource for believers. But I’ve been a part of internet discussion groups and bulletin boards that I’m ashamed of because of their obsession with being cantankerous with each other to the point of driving unbelievers away. The internet is a great way for unbelievers to investigate the claims of Christ (and Christians) anonymously. Unfortunately, that’s a blessing and a curse.

Todd,

Thanks for the shout out dude!  This has been some great discussion. 

I love the first question raised by Jim about how to know whether or not the critic has merit--and I loved your answer. 

I listen to criticism all the time.  The people around me share their thoughts and feelings and do not hold back--and that is invaluable to me.  Every leader needs people around him or her that love them enough to tell them the truth. 

The thing that is the most bothersome about critics is when they take pot shots & yet they seem to desire to remain anonymous AND will never put what they do out for public opinion.  They always proclaim what they are against--but what about them--what are they doing? 

And Greg, as far as the Ice, Ice Baby post, dude, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.  Just having fun...and am not bothered by the fact you disagree.  But the deal is if you love Jesus--then I promise we are on the same team!!!  I can live with that!

Hey Jim,

“Todd seems to be saying that we shouldn’t accept correction from people on the internet, or from people that dont know us.”

I don’t think that’s what I said. What I did say was that criticism, like the kind Perry experienced on the internet, is often from mis-informed and/or cowardly individuals.  That may sound harsh, but I don’t mean it to… When I say cowardly, I mean that the person will publicly criticize an individual when they will not identify themselves.  When I say mis-informed; many times the criticism comes from not knowing the full story; or believing a second-hand story about someone and criticizing them because of that.  To me, this type of criticism is 90% worthless.

“Perry seems like he may be saying that criticism and correction should be limited to those closest to us, perhaps those within our same church sphere.”

I don’t know that it should be LIMITED to those that are close to us; but criticism from people we know definitely has more of an impact than from a nameless, faceless entity on the internet.  True friends will confront and criticize.  And ideally, our friends and acquaintances will be free to offer opinions to us because we’ve actually encouraged them to do so in this area.

I think the internet really murks up some things.  Ideally, criticism should be handled one-on-one.  The internet takes that personal contact out of the equation, which automatically makes things more difficult.

For the record, I’ve been criticized, challenged, and even at times ridiculed here on my own blog… many times it has been helpful… some times it has not… and I think Perry’s words of wisdom are great advice for anyone who finds that they have detractors on the web.

Todd

TO me, it’s an easy way out for a christian to avoid having to test the spirits or even search out a matter for Truth.

I’ve had people basically write off some of the things said and walk away willing to believe in what they believe regardless of what Scripture says about the matter.

Agree to disagree works when your talking about the weather or sports or even the way people should sing or not sing but when you discuss essentials to The Faith like The Gospel and Who God Is, you can’t walk away from the table with two different views.  The Gospel is the same for all of us as Christians - there are not two gospels (there are in fact many gospels but only one Truly Saves)… it’s disheartening to see church leaders just walk away from the table doing what is right in their own eyes, and not really giving a second thought to what Scripture says about it.  There’s a serious issue in the heart’s of men when they can walk away truly believing that it’s okay to disagree about The Gospel.

I would say much of these things in person but praise God, I have an opportunity to speak to hundreds maybe even thousands at the same time.  I hope not to encourage for the sake of encouraging.  What good would it be for me to encourage someone in a false teaching?

The Bible says woe to those who call good evil and evil good and sometimes I honestly feel this is exactly what is happening in America; which is unfortunate considering that this country is truly the last place on earth where The Gospel (The True Gospel) can be preached openly without consideration for imprisonment or death for doing such things.  This too may change in the next 10 to 20 years if we keep calling good evil and evil good.

I encourage Todd and other bloggers to not write off criticism but test it with Scripture.  Is it Biblical criticism, like the critics Jesus, Paul, Peter and others or is it pharisee criticism like the sanhedrin and pharisees or the High Priest?  Weigh it carefully because the difference between the two is a vast cavern and the geography is the difference between light and darkness.

Todd,

You said:
“As Perry mentioned, the person writing and criticizing him had not met him;”

- I would dare to say that most people at his church have not met him nor have they spent an extended amount of time with him.

“attended his church;”

- Why attend, when you can download his message and outline and listen from your computer? I don’t think his message changed from when it was live to when it was recorded. You can also read his blog to get a better understanding of his thoughts.

“or even publically given his identity.”

- When Perry is up on stage, most people in the audience are nothing but nameless faces. They could be anybody and he wouldn’t know. This is not knocking Perry, but when you speak to a large crowd, you can’t possibly look out into the audience and know everyone.

My point is that with the internet and all of it’s resources, a lot of what you said Todd doesn’t apply anymore. I can do all those things and I bet I know just as much if not more than most people that attend his church.

Just my two cents.

This has been an awesome thread!  Todd, thanks for making reference to the blog article. 

Let me address just a thing or two…

#1 - I DO listen to criticism--I NEED it, without it I cannot be sharpened.  However, the point I was trying to make in the post was that I have chosen to not listen to the cloak and dagger critics on the internet--I just can’t respect that. 

There was a dude a few weeks ago that does not attend our church on a regular basis, but happened to be in one of our services.  When I asked him what he thought he told me, “You need to slow down in the delivery of your message--at times you were hard to follow.”

Point taken--and it has helped me out--we all need criticism--but not from people who want to point out the “bad” for the sake of doing it! 

#2 - Just another Joe...you might be amazed to find out who I do know and don’t know at NewSpring.  It’s actually quite funny, people are creatures of habit and sit in the same places every week.  And my friend, they are not nameless faces in the crowd--they are people that matter to Jesus Christ...therefore, they matter to me. 

As far as having a conversation with me--the way I see it in the book of Acts the church is not supposed to be about the people knowing the pastor--but about the church falling in love with Jesus. 

C’mon, do you actually think that Peter knew every single person that accepted Christ in Acts chapter two, remember--there were 3,000 of them.  Did they all have a conversation with Peter? 

My job as a pastor is not to try to know every single person--but to try my best to teach them Scripture and who Jesus is...and to encourage them to move towards community. 

A church is not effective when a pastor ministers to the people--but rather when the body ministers to the body. 

Oops--I guess I went a little long. 

Perry,
I wasn’t try to say that they don’t mean anything to you or to Jesus. Nor was I saying that you didn’t know anybody in the church. My point was that I could sit in the audience and then pass you on the street and you would not know what my name is or that I attended and just because you see them in the same spot every week doesn’t mean you know anything about them. As far as Peter knowing all 3,000 people, maybe yes, maybe no.

Peter,
I still diagree :o) I know a lot of people that attend NewSpring and I seem to know way ahead of time before they do of what goes on and what gets said. I’m not knocking NewSpring, but I’m trying to point out that there are some people that have never met Perry nor attended his services and still can have an objective view on things and offer some constructive criticism.

Tony,

I’m not sure that’s a fair assessment.  Wise leaders put people around them who will give honest feedback, even when it hurts.

I’m grateful for my board, because they have no problem letting me know their concerns.  And I’m grateful for the fact that they do it like adults, not a bunch of whining children.

Yes, they support me and my leadership - but they are hardly “yes men (and women!).”

By the way, when did this thread turn into a “criticize Perry and NewSpring” thread?

We’re simply trying to learn how to understand and respond to criticism, not give examples of that criticism here!

Brian

Hi all -

I got a personal email about this discussion - I had no idea people were giving Perry so much grief!

Perry & the staff at NewSpring are men & women of absolute integrity and humility before God.  I consider it a huge honor to have served on the Executive Team there.

Tony - I have not heard from you as Perry encouraged, but I will say that I have no idea what you are talking about/referring to (I also do not know who you are!).  If you have questions about me or my ministry, please feel free to email/contact me personally.  But be aware that I have nothing but the utmost respect for Perry & Co. 

Peace!

Peter writes:
And, BeHim,
You say “you can’t walk away from the table with two different views.” Well, come on, on some issues you certainly can! You are surely not suggesting that there are no honest disagreements among Christians on what Scripture says about some things? For example, I have known devoted Christian Calvinists and devoted Christian Arminians. Both loved Jesus! Both were effective with the Gospel. Both can’t be right on this one issue, though. And no amount of debate, whether gentle or violent, over the past 400 years or so has resolved the issue once and for all to everyone’s satisfaction. Are only Calvinists saved? Only Arminians? (Didn’t mean to start another thread here… sorry, Todd)

BeHim responds:
Peter, we’ve discussed a portion of Calvanism and Arminianism before and in terms of Salvation, neither has a case, nor should they.  Salvation is God’s Alone to Judge.  If a Calvanist says an Arminian isn’t saved or vice versa, Scripture clearly states this too, ought not to be.

In context, what I was referring to is agreeing and disagreeing on essentials, like The Gospel and Who God Is…

Although the Calvanist/Arminianist debate revolves around Who God Is, I would venture to say that many of the points are non-essential from the view of Salvation (I know some would disagree) but essential to Christian growth and maturity.

There cannot be a disagreement on The Gospel between Cchristians!

If two Cchristians sit down at the table and walk away agreeing to disagree on what the Gospel is, I’m sorry, this is not Biblical.  One can be right or they can both be wrong but they cannot both be right.

There is ONE Gospel taught in Scripture.

I will make one more comment on this and then I will leave the issue alone. 

I think this blog posting was blown way out of proportion...I was not saying I do not listen to critics...the post was dealing with cloak and dagger people on the internet--I do not listen to them--never have, never will.  Most of the people I have encountered in this way have never darkened the doors of my church--or any other church that they criticize. 

The Bible speaks that we all need rebuking in our lives--I know I do--but I choose to accept it from those who actually have wisdom as to what they are talking about.