While I am unable to view or read Young’s remarks, I can almost say without equivocation that Ed, Jr. is a victim of the system he so steadfastly defends.

When I was in bible school, the “Rule,” which was made up by some very insecure “pastors,” demanded a minimum distance of a 50-mile radius where a “pirate” was “allowed” to plant an new work. 

Of course, no one ever questioned the fact that those who made the “Rule” had started their respective little fiefdoms well within the 50-mile radius.

I’m sure Ed, Jr. has some friends who are “pirates,” who, like himself, are more concerned with turf wars than spreading the Gospel.

I thought the same thing about Ed when I watched the video yesterday. This is one of those topics I know about from a couple of different positions having been through church splits years ago, and then being approached about new church start here where we live currently.

Hubby and I could not agree with starting a new church where the individuals were wanting us to. We knew the hurt and division it would cause… not might cause - would cause. We recently got a new senior pastor at the church we’ve been serving at for the last three years. We totally support him and pray for him and his family daily.

This is where it gets confusing for some.. Is my husband looking for a church body to pastor? Absolutely. Could that mean starting a church at some point? If the Lord so leads.... It won’t be here in G-town though. And we’re good with that.

For the record… I am thankful for Fellowship Church. I can remember when it was first started in the place where I had gone to movies at. They were doing a different kind of church than any thing that city had ever seen before. I am grateful for all the lives that have been changed as a result. While I was never a member of that particular fellowship.. we are all a part of the same Church.

We live in a highly commericalized church environment where people bolt for the new thing, or the service which touches them or where they can get feed or whatever. Ed is just dealing with a church culture where success is seen primarily in the size of congregation, and if you can jump start you thing with 3000 well there you are.

But if you are not, in Ed’s words, a “major church” or a “phenomenal church” then this may not be your problem.

Clayton writes

[How do we know the difference between a subversive leader and an ill-equipped top leader? It’s got to be case by case, and can’t be as sweeping as it’s depicted here.]

A young leader who leaves a church and starts one down the road that either by design or circumstance pulls a significant number of people out of the church he left is subversive and, imho, not doing what God called him to do, no matter how much he claims.

The young leader who goes to another town (hopefully one that is woefully lacking in the kind of church he is going to plant) and has success planting a church that reaches people who are un-churched more than siphoning from other churches is not. Yes there will always be some who bolt for the “new thing”, but if you’re designing from scratch to NOT pull people from other churches… that is, imho, the right way to go about it.

I’m glad to see Ed Young be honest and admit that he sees church as a profit making corporation, which it is, and that anyone of his “employees” who deprives him of his rightful “profits” should be in jail just as in the corporate world.  If you would like another glaring example of christian profit and greed just open your bible and notice the copyright notice inside the front cover.  Copywriting the word of God?  How have Christians sunk so low?

There may actually be some true believers in Jesus out there, but if so, there aren’t very many.  The only way to expose these profit making wolves in minister’s clothing is to stop giving money to the church, all churches.  Give your tithes instead directly to the poor as Jesus commanded.  When the cash flow dries up, then we will see who really believes and who is just in it for the money.

I almost forgot to say this…

“we are the pirates we don’t do anything
we just stay at home, and lie around
and if you ask us, to do anything
we’ll just tell you, we don’t do anything”

Nothing like Cucumber humor on a Tuesday morning…

Years ago in 1991 I was dismissed from a pastorate by my pastor of a church under our ministry. My Pastor fired me without cause, lied about moving me and my family to that church, made many promises none of which were kept and I was unceremoniously dumped from my position.
I had the church board’s support but because he was the founding pastor of that church he overode their support of me, it was at this time I knew I could no longer remain a member so after enduring the pain, anger, & disappointment of how my leader fired me & through much prayer I knew it was time for me and my family to leave.
When we left only one other family in our church knew about it & they only knew becasue we were close friends, we only told them because of our relationship & not because we wanted them to follow us.

When we left my ex-pastor thought I was going to tell everyone why we were leaving but he needed not worry as a preachers kid I knew better than to “split” the church and take people with me that weren’t mine.

It was six months before anyone knew (other than our friends who we told) that we were no longer serving in that pastorate or no longer members of our home church. To this day I thank God that when we left we left right, having forgiven my ex-pastor and walked away without being a “church pirate.”
Since April of 1991, my wife and I have pastored for 17 years glorifying God every step of the way.

I’ve been a Christian for over 30-years and 13 of those years as a full-time pastor.  My experience working for several mega-churches have given me the impression of several senior pastors that seem to be like Ed.  What I call “spin doctors.” Someone that can make anything look to their favor.  They whimper to their congregation looking for pity in a round about way.  They are so worried about the size of “their kingdom” that they have lost sight of God’s kingdom.  They will tell you they are not worried about numbers in public, but in private they stress their staff out about numeric growth.  They come across one way in public and a total different way towards their staff. 

I don’t believe you can “steal” people.  People are not something we should look at with an owner’s mentality.  People have the freedom make their own decisions and sometimes they decide to move on.  Unless they are being deceived or lured away from the Lord Jesus Christ, then it’s really up to them what Shepard they desire to follow.  Jesus is the Shepard that we as pastors should make sure we point people to follow not any man.  We are to care for His sheep… which is temporary as He wills, not as we will. 

I’m sure many of sheep have strayed into Ed’s pen from other local churches.

If you’ve seen much of Ed’s teaching to pastors, this is his typical rant - disloyalty and betrayal.  His sheep, his staff, his ministry, his church… IMO, it’s almost cult-like.

I can just say I am very disappointed in Ed Young Jr.  I went to his blog and it is very interesting that the comments on his are all the same flavor as his.  Unlike this blog where there are many who disagree with his thoughts. 

I hate insecurity and I agree that churches nor pastors own people.  If the folks who are leaving were happy and content, do you think they would leave in the first place?

Lighten up and chill out dude!  The woeth me thing really isn’t him.  It is God’s kingdom, God’s people, and there are too many lost people out there to whine about the fact that somebody took my church member.  waahhhhh!

Pretty arrogant to think one church in every town is all we need.  When you moved into Plano or Ft. Worth or downtown Dallas did you consider you’d be “stealing” people from other churches?  Or did you check everyone’s ID at the door and send them back if they came from another church?  I get the fact you’re talking about people leaving your church and starting something down the street, but aren’t the results the same?  You’re taking “sheep” from other places.  Talk to any small church located close to a mega-church and that pastor will tell you the mega-church is the pirate.  And why can’t four or five people meet at a church and be blessed with a calling to plant another church?  What is so wrong witht that?  Why do you speculate their hearts are full of deceipt and disloyalty?  You have several thousand attend every week and dozens of part/full-time staff.  Do you honestly think everyone has to fall in line forever?  Couldn’t God bless someone while they’re at Fellowship and then send them off on another adventure?  Even if that adventure is 10 miles away?  He/she may want to plant a church that God is calling him/her to plant.  And that will look different than Fellowship.  And so what if people from Fellowship go to that church.  Isn’t the main goal that people are going somewhere to grow spiritually?  Please don’t post any more staff meeting videos like this.  You’re not doing yourself or your church any favors.

wow… there are lots of good insights here… i tend to agree with steve w’s perspective....

in a recent situation due to a conflict of philosophies of ministry among our staff, i ended up resigning from my ministry, mainly for the purpose of “preserving the peace"…

on the surface, the situation had the appearance of an “amicable split”, but i must say that in the aftermath, the temptation to begin a new ministry in the same town was significant… doing that would likely have caused even more hurt and division, and as i sought the Lord about it, it seemed more like something i wanted to do for my own gratification / vindication than it was a way to continue to serve the Lord ...  thankfully, i did not give in to that temptation…

that being said, i still wonder sometimes if it would be so wrong for a new work to spring up right in the same neck of the woods that would (for lack of a better term) “challenge” the status quo of some dyed-in-the-wool ministries… kinda like putting a taco bell (not a burger king) next to a mc donalds…

the fact is that some people who frequent a mc donald’s wouldn’t set foot in a taco bell, and vice-versa… so… what i am saying is that perhaps another ministry in the same neighborhood that does things differently would increase the spread and affect of the the gospel, and a church split might be considered a positive thing in some situations…

I don’t doubt that there are people in Grapevine and the surrounding area who like the type of worship and teaching at Fellowship, but who for whatever reason want a smaller congregation and sermons delivered by a pastor who knows them by name.  In fact, I know a number of them.

And frankly, since Fellowship has started building all of those satellites with video feeds you’d practically have to move out of state not to be “next door” to Young’s church.  Why is it wrong for a member of that community to decide to minister in his community when he sees that there is a need among the people he knows?

My husband and I have been involved on some level in several SBC church plants, although never one of the founders but rather a church we found after a relocation.  In each case, the sponsoring church actively recruited members to move to the new church (with their tithes) to help establish it.  And all of these were done right in the same city, even neighborhood.

I liked that statement above about “divide and multiply.” In fact, it’s how Young’s church was established back in the day.