I agree with much of what he says about “religion"… Not Christ or his real followers, though…

However, EJ can hardly be thought of as an “authority” on the subject, now can he… I suppose he’d like us to totally throw out what we believe just so that we can be nicer to him. I’ve a better idea. Let’s be kind, compassionate, caring, et cetera WITHOUT changing what we believe. Some famous historical figure did this really well, oh about twenty centuries ago… the name escapes me…

Elton, respectfully, “Shut up and sing”

The church in our age has long been behind in it’s response to culture and then when it responds, only the negative responses receive attention.  Our culture has long been heading toward the nobility of being gay.  What I mean is that it was only 30 or so years ago that homosexuality was illegal.  Then it became a private matter, then it became a public matter, then it became a minority issue on the level of race, now it has become accepted culturally in so many ways, soon it will become (already is in some places) an equally accepted relationship along with traditional marriage. Eventually it will head towards the expertise of gay people when it comes to religion, ethics, civil rights and law. 

What has the church done?  One media covered group of people hold up “God hates fags” signs, and while they are a relatively small group of people, the media has given them our voice because we as a church are silent.  The American church has never figured how to do ministry in this segment of society.  It has never discovered a clear voice that is much beyond condemning.  Consequently our silence has cost us our authority on the matter. 

Is Elton John right?  No he speaks the foolishness of men.  His wisdom is crippled not by being gay but by being human.  But because of no clear voice of compassion and reason (sort of the Grace and Truth thing) coming from the church, he gets the headline.

Leonard,

There are a multitude of churches that have very effective ministires to the gay community in terms of care for AIDS patients. They do not approve the lifestlye but have made committed efforts to care for those who are sick and dying. They just do not need or seek the spot light. Being on the news is not always a good or desired thing.

I don’t think we’re hitting the “real” problem that EJ has.  No amount of “love” is going to win him or the majority of gays over if they feel that their choices are morally and inherently “good.” The ONLY thing that I see satisfying the crowd that promotes homosexuality is for religion to acquiece and say that homosexuality is morally equivlant to male/female relationships.  They don’t want love - they want to be “right.”

Therefore since EJ knows that the religions of the world won’t do that (for the most part at least although I know some denominations do) his only solution is the abolishment of all religion.  Even if all religion were abolished he would still wind up being dissatisfied since his heart would not feel accepted.

Which brings us right around to I_AM_NOT’s quote which I’ll repeat -

Ultimately, all pursuits apart from God lead to alienation and loneliness that only the touch of Christ can resolve. – Ravi Zacharias

Phil

Nonsense (my opinion, of course).  “They don’t want love - they want to be ‘right.’” assumes that their biggest frustration is lack of acceptance.  Perhaps for some, this is true.  But for the most part I think what many gays are upset by is sheer hatred (sometimes masked behind religious language).  If Western society could get to the point of ‘live and let live’, where conservative Christians could disagree with gays (but not hate them) and vice-versa, then I think most gays would be quite happy.  And since this is a justice issue, I can understand why!! 
No one, whatever their sin, deserves to be hated or treated in demeaning ways.  Being called names, spat on, and looked at suspiciously day after day after day has to be very tiring…
As Christians, we are called to side with the downtrodden, even if the downtrodden happen to be caught in a specific sin.  So let’s be very careful to examine ourselves and see to it that we never needlessly offend another, Christian or not, gay or not.
Cheers,
-Daniel-

Well said Leonard and Phil. The only relationships that I truly feel love and acceptance is when I know I can be wrong and still be accepted and cherished. We have the ability to be wrong. As long as each side is “right” in their own mind we will continue towards isolation and loneliness. In sound bites in the media only separates the groups further. It is a grass roots effort to care for a person even though you may not agree with their lifestyle choices that will change the world. When they meet a follower of Christ who showed them love and authenticity. God is both love and just. We enjoy expressing the just part and avoid the love portion, dismissing it as soft and misguided. And we can’t become pithy and miss the just element.

So a popular singer spouts off a few words about “religion” and “gays” and we are to what?  Well, first EJ is generalizing.  He speaks of religion in general and not specifics.  There are relgions [non-Christian and some Christian groups] that favor and promote the gay lifestyle.  He should be a little more careful about his over-generalizations.  Even if he meant Christianity, it is a broad grouping that includes very liberal thinking folks to some extremists. 

There are groups of Christians who rightly divide the Word and have determined that the gay lifestyle is not biblical [and thus sinful] but will reach out in love to the gay community with the gospel message which can change lives.  And that will not be considered acceptable by many gay activitists.  For those who demand others embrace their gay lifestyle as the same as heterosexual marriages, there will always be a perception that the Christian religion promotes hate. 

But it is interesting to note that EJ has not been the recipient of any religious hate.  So who is really fomenting the hate?  Religion or EJ?

Being in theater has put me in a place of choosing to love these people or not.  One lesbian woman I run into everywhere.  Honestly, if she’s shopping I am and we see each other.

I have to say that I think that is of the Lord.

I agree with most of what was said by all the rest of you.  But to put it in practical terms, every gay person I have met and gotten to know, is walking wounded.  They have deep deep scars that they haven’t been able to overcome.

That said, I believe that real love, that is love that only comes from God is the answer.
This isn’t easy, share with them, they accept and get baptized kind of ministry.  It’s long term, relationship and trust building and earning the right to be heard type ministry.

How many of us are truly willing to do that?  It’s easier to quote Romans 1 and move on.

And it’s a lot more difficult to invite them for a cup of coffee and be their friend.

Just a side note:  I’m not saying to accept their beliefs or to approve of their lifestyles.

Leonard,

Hmmm.  I guess I wasn’t really paying attention in American history class.  Really??  Homosexual sex used to actually be against the law in the US, along with sodomy?  I have understood the changes in the legal climate to be challenges to the constitutionality of various practices and laws which prohibit freedoms (or perceived freedoms).  Similar to the constitutional challenge to voting prohibition for blacks.

Would you actually support laws that would cause people having same sex relations to be subject to arrest, homosexuality actually being illegal? It sounded as if you feel this was a preferable situation.

Phil,

No need to apologize.  I think we probably agree that only heart transformation which comes from experiencing Christ’s love will change the worldview of any sinner (including EJ, and you and me).  I just wanted to submit that Jesus seemed to be prone to simple loving acts before ever commenting on worldview (like caring for people who are dying from Aids . . . in our neighborhood or across the globe.)

Indeed there are Christian folks who have behaved hatefully toward gays.  On MMI alone (just in the year I’ve been reading), Todd has posted; a story of a Christian in metropolitan international airport wearing a tee shirt that read “God hates: fags, abortionists, (and someone else I can’t remember, a story about Pastor Phelps who pickets the funerals of American soldiers with signs about God punishing America because of our support for fags, and just about a month ago a sincere poster (young pastor) engaged in a lengthy dialogue with several of us about his need to “hurl” if he was ever asked to counsel someone struggling with homosexuality.

In spite of these, I do think few Christians really behave hatefully toward gays.  So your comparison to teenage perceptions works well.  We understand a teen might perceive that his/her parents hate them.  We understand that just goes with the territory.  But generally, the ones who show the love which is perceived as hate are the parents who are in relationship with the teen, not the neighbors or the pastor or the “Christian community.”

Wendi

Wendi,
I am not sure what I said that made it sound as if I preferred it that way.  I actually have not given much thought to the subject.  The only reason I knew this was my mother used to work for the state in the Bureau of Criminal Statistics and she told me long ago.  I did do some research before I posted so as to not be too inaccurate.  I do know that as recently as a few years ago Texas had an anti sodomy law.  I think that my point was that homosexuality is becoming more and more permissible in our culture and the church is being portrayed as to be only dealing with it in a condemning way.  I know there are great ministries available to bring compassion and love, but those do not get respect of the media or gay community.

Does God love sinfulness; be it a sinner or sin or just plain sinful?

In Christ is NO sin and in Him is Perfect Love.  Outside of Christ there is wrath - against Sin.

Loving ALL people equally is NOT in Christ - that friends is perfectly outside of Christ.

Of course Christ loves sinful beings BUT that does not conclude that He loves or is required to love all of them - only those whom the Father gives Him.

Who are they?  I would suspect they are those who don’t embrace sinfulness but rather run from it and repent.  Anyone willing to stay in sin (WILLINGLY) and claim Christ is not TRULY repentant.  It’s like a child saying he didn’t take the cookies out of the cookie jar while chocolate covers is lips, face and hands.

Just because you say you love God doesn’t mean you really do - a person might fool others, they might even fool themselves but make no mistake, God will be no creature’s fool.

Some will say I/we judge a man’s heart for saying such things but rather we judge the action and call for repentance - where there is no repentance, there is rebellion and sinfulness.

We are called to stand against this type of sinfulness and not only against those who practice such things but those who support them (Romans 1).  The world has convinced the church not to judge - WHY?  The heart we should agree BUT the action is something else.

Wendi -

Of the 4 examples given 3 of them were NOT religous leaders or anything close to it. 
1- An invalid of 38 years
2- An average promicuous woman
3- Businessmen

Only Nicodemus was what we would term a religous leader.

And to give the study of Jesus even more credibility look at some of His reactions AFTER He spoke kindly or acted to kindly to those who refused His kindness, grace, and mercy!  If anyone on this board acted in that manner they would be ridiculed as judgmental and intolerant and a BAD witness for the cause of Christ (at least from what I can tell from the tenor of the blogs I’ve read so far.)

In my humble opinion the church has made Jesus’ personality and/or ministry style into someone and/or something that it is not. 

In fact I would ask someone (you or anyone else) to show me the “many” examples given of Jesus continually acting kindly to those (showing acts of kindness) that continually reject His truths. 

Isn’t it Jesus who told His disciples to “shake their robes and clean off their sandals.” I don’t believe the case could be made that His disciples were being sent into these towns to speak to religous leaders only.

Anyway ... I find Jesus fascinating and our perceptions of His person and ministry even more so.

My experience has been that when people sense you care and have compassion they will allow you input to enter the conversation of life - even if they know you disagree.  However, there are those that once they find out you’re a Christian assume you are a hating & prejudicial person.  My sense is that EJ is that type.  Why?  Because he is asking for the abolition of organized religion even after admitting that he has not been under attack from these organizations.

His gripe is that there are millions - nay hundreds of millions - of people around the world who feel that his sexual activity choices are sinful and not looked upon favorably by God.  BTW, gossips don’t like to hear that, adulterors don’t like to hear that, etc. etc.

We are all sinners saved by grace.  My understanding of scripture is that David (who was a pretty “big” sinner in worldly sense) was called a “man after God’s own heart (even though a murderer and adulterer) because when confronted by Nathan with his sin he repented and didn’t say that Nathan was wrong (the equivilant of saying that God is wrong.)

BTW, David is from the tribe of Judah and his ancestor Judah also turned his life around the moment he was confronted with his same inconsistent judgement of Tamar.  He confessed & repented and from that moment on Judah’s life was more effective for impacting his people for God.

I preach grace EVERY SINGLE WEEK and not Law.  However, on a Christian board like this I get a little skimish when one can by critical of EJ and then sort of be made to feel as if they are not acting like Christ.  I don’t worry about WWJD.  Who knows what He WOULD DO?  I look at WDJD.  I know what He DID DO!  From His many examples I believe Jesus would tell EJ the truth without holding back. 

Again, JMO.

You are great to dialog with.