CS: [Instead, we hear stories now where “revivals” happen, and hundreds of thousands of people “come to Christ,” but then less than 1% of those can be found in churches a year later. ]

It is simply not acceptable to cite statistics you can’t back up.  CS, what research have you done that qualifies to make such a definitive statement?  (less than 1% of people who make decisions stick around).  Exactly how many churches did you visit in your research project?  How did you determine that you experienced enough of the overall church strategy to fairly criticize (listening to one sermon is pretty bad research)?  Since you claim to be such a statistical expert on the shortfalls of the American church, I think it is fair for me to ask you some data about your own church.  What was your “real” conversion growth rate last year: (# of “genuine” conversions : # of congregants)?  How do you verify that these are around your church 1 year later?

Katrina: [All this “Ask Jesus into your heart”, “Make a decision for Christ”, “Accept Jesus as Lord” are all unbiblical.]

Spoken like a true predestination-ist.  But if the Holy Spirit draws (which I agree with), and His drawing cannot be resisted (which I disagree with), what difference does it make if we ask?  What exactly is your beef?  Those who are not chosen won’t respond to our ask, and those who are will.  And no where does Jesus say anything like “just tell people they are sinners, do not ask them to follow me, leave the “ask” to the Spirit.” It seems like your method is interfering with the Spirit’s work more than those who are asking people to respond, since it is the Spirit, not we, who convict people of sin.

I’ve known many people who are devoted followers of Jesus and cannot identify any time when they made a decision.  I’ve also known many more who remember the important time in their life when they chose to follow Jesus, even though they had no idea at the time what changes they would be called to make (thank the Lord that He doesn’t convict us of all our sins the moment we choose to follow Him).  Perhaps the HS urging Pete was feeling, and his uninformed attempts to respond would have been enough to secure his salvation if he had died before Chris asked the question.  Only God knows that.  But because Chris DID ask, Pete can live out his days embraced by a faith community, gaining a real understanding of how much God loves him and can transform the final days of his life.  If that is all, it is certainly worth the ask.

Leonard makes such a good point.  Why are people like you CS and Katrina so determined to find fault with churches that are being innovative and very intentional about drawing the lost to the cross, while you seem to give a pass to the thousands of American churches that have maintained year after year with the same families and do absolutely nothing to reach out to lost and broken people.  It seems to me that complacency is much more dangerous than striving hard, even if imperfectly, to reach people who are still outside the embrace of Jesus.

Wendi

Leonard:

“Tell me please about where your experience is coming from.”

Here’s the abbreviated version: I grew up in a “Christian” home, attended church, grew active in my faith as a teenager, and was baptized on my 18th birthday.  But I still lived like a heathen and sinned like nobody’s business, through college and onto professional life.  And it wasn’t until I was married and had a family that someone showed me my sins in light of God’s Law that I was convicted by the Holy Spirit.

If I had died during that time, I would have gone to Hell, because I was not a believer.  And none of those churches over the years I attended spoke the truth or shared the Gospel.  I got plenty of self-help messages, plenty of “you have a God-shaped hole in your heart,” but nothing about God’s justice, wrath, or his true Love.

That is a good part of why I stand so opposed to non-Biblical conversion.  These people, like me, are guilty in their sins and need to hear the truth.  Even when that means being unpopular and calling out bad teaching.

Wendi:

“It is simply not acceptable to cite statistics you can’t back up.  CS, what research have you done that qualifies to make such a definitive statement?”

Sorry for not citing my source, and for getting it a little incorrect.  In a sermon called, “Hell’s Best Kept Secret,” by Ray Comfort, Ray cites a major denomination of 11,500 churches that had 294,000 people, “make decisions for Christ in one year.” One year later, they found only 14,000 in fellowship.

That would be 4.7% of converts actually behaving like their salvation was real and going to church and being active in their faith.  I underestimated, which I hope you forgive me for that.

“Why are people like you CS and Katrina so determined to find fault with churches that are being innovative and very intentional about drawing the lost to the cross, while you seem to give a pass to the thousands of American churches that have maintained year after year with the same families and do absolutely nothing to reach out to lost and broken people. “

That’s a great assumption, but I stand opposed to any church that is not evangelizing and preaching the Gospel.  It doesn’t matter if it is the little Lutheran church down the road or BigHugeMegaChurch, Inc.  It just so happens that this site focuses on the “innovative” ones, so my responses are appropriately tailored towards them.

Also, striving hard can be just as bad as complacency if it is done incorrectly.  It doesn’t matter how quickly you run if you are pointed in the wrong direction.

Jerry:

“CS - Why, why, why do you insist that people should react the way you think they should? “

It’s not the way I think they should, it’s comparing it to the Bible and examples therein.  If I could have things demonstrated to me in the Bible such as saying a prayer to be saved, I would rescind my position and repent of any errors I made.

--
CS

in acts 8:37, the eunuch told philip that he believed that jesus was the son of god, philip baptized him, and the spirit of the lord caught philip away, and the eunuch was born again, i do not think it is a special prayer, i think it is believing jesus died and rose again, and i thnk it is what our heart is saying first, and our mouth speaks what is in our heart, like i said before, i am not a pastor, but i think that the gospel brings us to the truth of jesus, what he did, who he is, how he loves us, it is not by our emotions that we accept jesus, although we can get emotional, just some thought.

CS,

I’m going to agree to disagree with you on this.

Please do not misunderstand me...Our preaching the Gospel to the lost is God working through us on the hearts of the lost by His Divine plan to save sinners.  If fidelity to Scripture and resting in the SOVEREIGNTY of God our Father are primary in our efforts to be obedient to the Great Commission then altar calls (no biblical basis), sinners prayers (no biblical basis), & commitment cards (no biblical basis) would not be an issue. 

When the music is played to generate emotion, and “every eye closed and every head bowed” (no biblical basis) is used, and the lights are lowered, and planted volunteers come to the front to generate the “flow” are all used to manipulate the will of sinner then someone who responds to these tactics are presented to the congregation as a “believer.” Why are we surprised to find that most of these fall away not too soon after?  When someone is broken over their sin because the Gospel was BIBLICALLY presented and God is drawing their heart to Jesus, what you get is someone willing to lay down his/her life for their new found faith. 

We should ask...I have no problem with that.  Only after the truth of the full Gospel has been presented and not a “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life” message.

We were told by “experts” not to have altar calls in our area, that the people here just wouldn’t respond.

And we didn’t for quite awhile, even though scripture was being preached soundly… we saw very few conversions, or whatever you want to call them… decisions to be a Christ follower.

One week we just decided that maybe we should go for it a bit more boldly.

We are now seeing people come to Christ right and left, at least 5 or 6 per month and YES they are staying and our church is growing.  In fact it has tripled since September of this year.  And I don’t think we would be without giving people a chance to respond.

I don’t think whoever’s example of an invitation isn’t where we are at all… it’s not an emotion driven, playing and preying on vulnerable people thing. It’s a “You’ve heard the word, would you like to respond?  Can I pray for you?” etc…

A hooker’s son who is 25 and seeking a family and had never held a Bible, never heard the gospel message, a 75 year old woman who was bitter about how Christians had treated her over her lifetime and was literally loved into the kingdom, her 84 year old friend, who was raised Mormon, a former drug dealing young woman, two former drug dealing couples… the list goes on and on and on.  Yes, we give an invitation and it’s been powerfully received and responded to.

Do I even regard this debate?  Not when I see ministry happening like this on a weekly basis.

What stood out to me in this article was also the prevalent thought out there that a senior adult has already heard the gospel.  That we are spinning our wheels by trying to evangelize the senior community.

We have found this also to be untrue.  We have several seniors who have made decisions who NEVER heard the gospel message.  I mean NEVER.  And they are now attending church, growing in Christ and out telling all and sundry to come to church and that they can experience Jesus who will change their life.

I am convinced we shouldn’t target a certain age group in ministry, though we do need to be relevant to our culture.  The Word will pierce the heart and we need to be faithful in delivering it and in inviting individuals to “come follow me”.

I was very touched by this 71 year old man’s story.  Thanks for sharing it Todd

The overwhelming tendency to reduce the gospel into a series of statements and facts that must be acknowledged before God will accept you is kind of scary.  To assume someone must know the entire gospel before they are saved is also a bit ludicrous.  My daughter gave her heart to Christ as an almost three year old little girl who only knew that Jesus loved her so much he told God sorry for her sins.  My son at the age of three decided Jesus was not scary or yucky and asked him to be his best friend one night as he lay on his bed, all by himself.  Now as ages 14 and 12, both of my kids are deeply in love with their savior, follow him and daily develop their friendship with Christ. 

My buddy who had tried everything else in the world one night simply said, Jesus I give up and if you will have me I will follow you.  Another buddy after careful examination of the veracity of Christ’s claims decided to surrender his heart to Christ.  One young gal I know heard the claims of Christ but did nothing about it.  I asked her why she never surrendered her heart to Christ and in her words… “No one ever asked me to…” I did that night and now 14 years later, she is my youth pastor’s wife and serves Jesus by helping in our church and raising three amazing kids who are also coming to know Christ. 

The assumption that what we see in Acts concerning how people came to Christ is prescriptive is dangerous.  Should we wait until we can speak in tongues, should we enter Synagogue’s first, should we go to the river and meet with some people, should we wait until we see someone reading Isaiah, should we wait until a sheet comes down from heaven filled with ribs and chicken?  These are descriptions.  Should we start with Abraham as Steven did or should we start with a statue that had no name as Paul did. 

Katrina says:  All this “Ask Jesus into your heart”, “Make a decision for Christ”, “Accept Jesus as Lord” are all unbiblical. 

To state something as unbiblical is over the top.  Are they mentioned in the bible?  No but are they unbiblical?  Hardly.  Are computers unbiblical, how about bible study work books?  How about spiritual gift assessments?  How about a guitar in church?  How about a hymn book?  How about sound systems.  How about commentaries and other study tools?  They are not mentioned in scripture?  But they do help us engage and connect our faith to a real God.  So does asking someone to decide if they will or won’t trust Christ, so does accepting Jesus as lord… so does asking Jesus into our heart, which the bible says is the seat of belief by the way.  “With the heart man believes…”

I am sorry but those kind of arguments come from rhetoric rather than understanding.

Leonard,

You are so right.

Regarding “unbiblical,” allow me a thought:

There is a HUGE difference between UN-Biblical (not mentioned in Scripture) and ANTI-Biblical (being against or contrary to Scripture).

When we can get past the “UN” and worry more about the “ANTI” maybe some of these petty issues and arguments will fall by the wayside.

Here are a few other things that are unBiblical but that many churches do (and I am not in opposition against any of these, BTW): church buildings, crosses on the wall, communion tables, pew Bibles, pews, organs, pianos, suits and ties.  All of these are tools.  And they can be either used or abused, just like all the other things mentioned in this thread.

Brian L.

CS, With the heart man believes resulting in salvation… I hope Paul can fix this error in his Calvinism.  The bible says the heart is deceitful but it also says we believe with our hearts, obey with our hearts, love with our hearts, trust with our hearts.  Your argument out of Jeremiah is amazingly weak when it comes to asking Christ into our hearts. 

Out of the heart the mouth speaks and when we surrender our hearts our mouth confesses Jesus is Lord… Sounds a little like Paul again.  This semantic game you play with the phrase asking Jesus into your heart makes me wonder what you believe the phrase means. 

What do you understand the phrase “asking Jesus into you heart” to mean?

Wendi,

You and I have no idea who God is drawing when we engage them in a discussion of eternal matters.  When we use the examples set by Jesus and the apostles then we will be in the will of God and telling people a Christ centered message instead of a man-centered message.  I never call anyone a sinner - but I do prick their conscience by using the law to bring them to a knowledge that their sin is against God.  When their heart has been prepared for that message by the Holy Spirit you will easily see it in their countenance and their eyes.  The proud tend to get angry or upset.  Either way it worked.

The bottom line is that we are all still-born spiritually.  Until God raises that dead spirit to life in Jesus Christ then we cannot respond.  You nor anyone else can raise themselves from the dead...it is a miracle of God...just like salvation itself.  We plead for them in love to respond to the message because we know the fate of those who reject.

By the way, when you realize that someone you love is not saved, do you pray for their salvation?  I suspect you do.  Why should you pray to God for their salvation if it is a result of a human decision instead of a miracle of God?

CS – Thank you for responding to my question.  It looks like the Lord is really using your church and your pastor in reaching those who are seeking.  Since there appear to be few “invitations” from the pulpit, one can only assume that members like you are the evangelists, which is a great statement about your church.

I don’t think anyone is arguing with you about the elements you listed as necessary for genuine transformation.  I can’t speak for the others on this thread, but I disagree with you if you are saying that each of these elements must be fully explained whenever an invitation to respond is offered.  Gratefully, the elements of our salvation unfold as we walk with Jesus, and how these things unfold are as different people are different.  The only thing that is consistent is that we come understand what if means to follow Jesus in the context of community.  This explains why so many people at your church seem to be coming to an understanding of belief, confession, repentance, trust . . . even when your pastor doesn’t fully explain it in every sermon.  This has been my experience too.

Katrina [Why should you pray to God for their salvation if it is a result of a human decision instead of a miracle of God?]

This is a question that has been debated since the reformers began working out protestant theology.  As one who affirms a very solid “Cal-minian” theology, I would answer by saying that the human freedom to choose or reject God’s offer of salvation in no way diminishes the fact that it is a miracle of God.  Nor does freedom reduce salvation itself to a human decision, but it does support the importance and power of “the ASK.”

Wendi

I know it’s the ‘nature’ of blogs and humans, but in following this discussion it seems to me that there has once again been a false polarization from the original question and topic - focusing on differences and assumptions rather than the actual question at hand.

In reading the comments posted here, I can’t help but feel that this has become an either-or proposition.  Either one espouses a calvinistic predestination and rejects the practice of “altar calls” or one embraces altar calls and thus must adhere to “easy believism.”

I am a strong, unashamed “Calvinist” who gives some form of an altar call after every sermon.  I have actually found that my strong beliefs in predestination and God’s sovereignty in salvation provide me great freedom and persistence in doing so.  Knowing that the response or lack of response is God’s work and choosing, I don’t need to be inhibited by my own fears or pride of what the response might “show” about my “abilities.”

As I read and understand Scripture, I agree with CS & Katrina that whether or not we “remember the ASK” will not determine or change whether or not God ultimately brings one to salvation.  HOWEVER, I also believe that clearly presenting people with the gospel and pointing out to them the opportunity that Christ has given by grace through faith is the responsibility of every believer (especially Pastors).

In other words, I believe that the ASK is a responsibility that God’s servants should take seriously and carry out with urgency, even though the ANSWER is God’s responsibility.

Yet, we must also remember - as CS has tried to emphasize - that HOW we present the Gospel and the ask is just as important as the fact that we do ask.

Did I read the same story most of the rest of you did? 
I read this cool story about Pete coming to Christ prior to his imminent death.  Wow - great story.  Jesus no doubt is smiling.  How can there be anything but positives here… It is EMBARRASSING that ‘CS’ whoever the heck he is is having a field day picking apart the fine points of how one ought to rightly be brought to Jesus. My gosh - is it just me, or is this about the most idiotic discussion of all time… Christ Elrod, thank you for sharing.  Pete thank you for stepping out and taking a risk. 
CS, I’d love to hear about the 20 (literally) you’ve led to Jesus in the past 90 days and how that has gone for you according to your precise do’s and don’ts as laid out here.  Oh, if you can’t provide that list of 20 - get humping until you something other than a dream world to chatter about…