Derek, have you read Bob Dewaay’s book, Redefining Christianity where he takes a look at Rick Warren and the PD model?

In your discernment and evaluation of Bob DeWaay, did you seek to totally understand his position by reading his book or did you base your opinion on one paragraph?

I wouldnt want you to appear “foolish” by not trying to fully understand Bob DeWaay’s position before you dismiss Bob DeWaay’s research and book as “foolish”

Sam,

I haven’t read Dewaay’s book. My comments were not directed so much at Dewaay, but MacArthur. I have read JM’s review of both charismatics and church growth folks and I have listen to his critique of the emergent guys – and I have found him consistently doing bad research. He seems to have a pre-formed judgment on an issue and his research is little more than ammunition gathering to prove his point.

I have exhausted myself with trying to understand why those who follow the JM “model of ministry,” don’t like Christians who are not like them. [insert sarcastic smirk here]

I am not trying to understanding these watch dog, discernment, JM followers. I am not trying to understanding them and, unlike DeWaay I am not writing book exposing their errors. I have given the RW haters over to the Lord, because before their own master they will stand or fall.

I agree with Peter and others in this thread that we are straining at gnats and wrangling with words and getting no where…

Derek

Leonard Lee:

“I disagree with the statement that “Purpose Driven is about making a version of Christianity that is inoffensive to the world and thus attractive to people so they attend church.””

I remember listening to Rick Warren doing the core PDL program at Saddleback in 2007.  I was eager to hear him present his message from his pulpit, himself, as he usually delivers about only half of the sermons at his church.  As he led into the first sermon, he shared with his congregation how many copies of the book he had sold, how many churches participated in PD programs, and its effects all around the world.  It was a pretty impressive CV overall.

Then he said something interesting in continuing the list.  He said that the PDL program had been used in places including major sports teams, big-name companies like Ford, and talked about it being within the walls of companies.  The confines of the program were not limited to ministries and Christians, but were active in corporate America as well.

Now, I’m not a lawyer, nor did Warren explain more in-depth about the use of the programs in companies, but this sends up a big red flag.  With EOE laws, companies generally cannot use religious materials as a part of their corporate activities.  So, we have two options. 

The one option is that we have multiple organizations that did something that could be in breach of laws and practices of religious activities in the workplace.  If this was the case, I doubt that Warren would have been contacted about it nor would he have talked about it in a potentially public forum with a cavalier voice.  Or, if it was isolated to small pockets of employees who did this on their free time, that would make a statement like how it was being used in a company or on a sports team a half-truth to bolster his credentials--better known as lying.

The other option is that the content of PDL is, in fact, presenting a version of Christianity that is so inoffensive to the world that it could be put into the hands of employees, managers, and CEOs, and no one would know the difference.  So as these people are told that their lives have purpose, the message of the Gospel is subsided to the point where it would be no offense at all, which is not the true Gospel.

I would have to side with the latter, and agree with the assertion of the author of the article.

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CS

bishopdave:

“How do you know that’s not what happened?”

I would note the lack of lawsuits, press coverage, and outrage in the media as a guess that it didn’t happen that way.  In a world where a lawn decoration of a nativity scene on public property or a Bible on someone’s desk results in discrimination lawsuits, news reports, and outcries, I couldn’t see something that presents an accurate view of the Gospel entering into a corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees and someone not raising their voice in protest.

I mean, if a CEO came out and said, “All of you managers will participate in a program with religious teaching and values throughout it,” I bet that people would be lining the desks of lawyers left and right.  Would you agree with that?

“We used to rejoice about going into work places and sports teams with the gospel; we even called it “missions.””

I still rejoice at these efforts, too.  And, there is a difference between it being sanctioned by the company as a whole and sets of individuals and small groups gathering on their own.  This ties back into my other possible claim of exaggeration and half-truths in saying who used the PDL by Warren.

I sense a rabbit trail coming from my posting, though…

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CS

I agree that it is good Rick to listen to his detractors.

I tend to agree with the author as I find some of Ricks words etc too not God centered.

and I cannot stand ps who plug their own books, You selling at an amway meeting or preaching?

Job,
There are people who spend all their time on slamming ministries and ministers… They devote entire websites to it… and hours and hours of time invested.  Those are the people I am referring to… If your effort and content is all about slamming other people… then your time probably is wasted..  How much more productive could you be using the same time to share the gospel with others instead of tearing down others.
Just a thought.

Why are we so concerned with making sure we “offend” people to make sure the Gospel is actually preached? It seems like we go overboard to be “offensive” and then figure anyone who was not offended and came to a saving faith in Christ must not be a “real” conversion because they were not offended first. What about the times when Paul said people received his message without mention of offense? This is the problem we have in our society now and why the church has become marginalized. We have chosen to make offense the issue instead of the gospel and used rejection as a badge of honor or litmus test.

Because of this we “suspect” any ministry where growth is taking place because if it was attracting sinners then it must be watered down because no one in their right mind would attend. We have turned salt and light into sandpaper and laser beams. Jesus said they would know we were his followers by our love.

Kevin:

“I rejoice in what God is doing through Rick Warren,”

I’d be very careful about placing God’s fingerprints on Warren’s works.

People could say the same thing about numerous other “Warrens” throughout history (i.e., Jim Jones, et al) that ultimately ended in misery.

Unlike most of us, size doesn’t matter to God, which is why he chose Israel in the Old Testament to proclaim His glory.

TO:

“Why are we so concerned with making sure we “offend” people to make sure the Gospel is actually preached?”

In presenting the Gospel, we do not have to offend by being crass, coarse, or spiteful in our delivery.  I, like you, would likely object to such an act of preaching, like those hateful people at Westboro Baptist in Topeka.

However, the content of the Gospel itself is an offense to the world.  When we cite something like John 14:6, which says that Jesus is the only way, that message offends unsaved people who are not being convicted by the Holy Spirit. 

Consider the way most people reacted to the Apostles’ preaching of the Gospel.  They were stoned, crucified, attacked, martyred, scourged, and tortured for their testimonies.  So when we have a Gospel that can be delivered to men, where no one reacts by being even mildly upset or resentful, by example and by truth, it is likely not the whole Gospel being preached.

Even the Bible states how the Gospel and Jesus confounds, offends, and rubs people the wrong way:

“As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” Romans 9:33

“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness” 1 Corinthians 1:23

“Peter answered and said unto [Jesus], Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.” Matthew 26:33

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CS

We spend too much time worrying about what other people think and not enough time worrying about what God thinks.

You’re pretty hard pressed to find examples of Jesus going out of his way to rebuke people who believe differently and show all the ways they are wrong. He simply says what they should be doing. If people worried less about others and more about God there would be a lot less of these types of discussions.

I was reminded today that Matthew 12:36 tells us “…men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.”

It should be possible to disagree, but value those we disagree with as people made in God’s image and people doing God’s work.  But apparently this is not possible for some.

Oh, and the WorldNetDaily guy lost me when he started rebuking Warren for quoting verses from Bible translations other than the KJV, saying that they “are unworthy of being considered Holy Scripture”.

Bob,
I must say that Hate is a pretty strong word.  In your post it was followed up with some pretty strong emotions too.  Can I say that while several posters here drive me nuts with their constant negative assumptions and nitpicking, I think we can say safely that hate is too strong a word for this board. 

Can I encourage you to love these guys instead?  Jesus does.  I am sure your passion got ahead of you here, but I would think all of us here would want to avoid Hate.  Thanks and if you want to connect, click my name and e-mail me.

ENOUGH!  Just how many times on MMI are we going to have a Rick Warren debate?  The issues and arguments are always the same.  By this time (PDL was published YEARS ago!), everyone has decided whether they are “afor him or again’ him”.  If you like him - use his products and read his books.  If you don’t like him - don’t use his products and don’t read his books.  If everyone would spend this much passion and energy winning the lost people in their own backyard, they wouldn’t have time to worry about what some preacher in California is doing.  GROW UP.