i haven’t had a chance to read Dan’s piece yet, but i’ve had it bookmarked to do so for a few days now.

i thought this was interesting timing with Jon Kitna being asked what he was thankful for after his Lions lost on thanksgiving and he said “I’m thankful that I’m not going to hell.”

http://prayersforblowouts.com/2007/11/27/jon-kitna-thankful-to-avoid-hell/

The Elanie/ Puddy discussion is from one of the last Seinfeld episodes called “The Burning.” It is episode 172. There were only 180 episodes total. And it is funny stuff.

Here are two of the best scenes when they are discussing hell.

And oh yeah, we don’t talk about hell that much at our church, but we like to use these cheesy puns like: “This message will scare the HELL out of you.” and “You need to say ‘heaven yes’ and ‘HELL no’.” and “We want the truth to kick the HELL out of you.” {insert sarcastic laughter here}

Ok here are the scenes. 

Scene One
ELAINE: So where do you wanna eat?

PUDDY: Feels like an Arby’s night.

ELAINE: Arby’s. Beef and cheese and do you believe in god?

PUDDY: Yes.

ELAINE: Oh. So, you’re pretty religious?

PUDDY: That’s right.

ELAINE: So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?

PUDDY: Not for me.

ELAINE: Why not?

PUDDY: I’m not the one going to hell.

Scene two
Elaine: David, I’m going to hell! The worst place in the world! With devils and those caves and the ragged clothing! And the heat! My god, the heat! I mean, what do you think about all that?

Puddy: Gonna be rough.

Elaine: Uh, you should be trying to save me!

Puddy: Don’t boss me! This is why you’re going to hell.

Elaine: I am not going to hell and if you think I’m going to hell, you should care that I’m going to hell even though I am not.

Puddy: You stole my Jesus fish, didn’t you?

Elaine: Yeah, that’s right!

Elaine places her hands beside her head, index fingers raised as ‘horns’ and she emits a gutteral growling sound.

LOL

g&p;,

Derek

Why do we insist on talking about ‘hell’ when it isn’t in Scripture? So-called hell conflates metaphorical imagery pertaining to Sheol/Hades and Gehenna (which are entirely different concepts). Jesus warns of the judgment of Gehenna, but his parable of Lazarus and the rich man (if I’m remembering correctly) is set in Hades ("Abraham’s bosom” is in Hades as well as the place of torment).

Until we sort out these (very different) concepts, all we’ll be doing is repeating post-biblical mistakes.

My two cents.
-Daniel-

Dan--thanks for the feedback. No, I hadn’t read your post (perhaps to my shame?). I was responding to Todd’s question about whether or not our church talks about ‘hell’. My point was simply that the word has non-Scriptural connotations, and so perhaps churches shouldn’t be talking about ‘hell’.

But your post is helpful. You are clearly aware of the important background issues, even if I think they justify tossing out the word ‘hell’ entirely.

The only part I would call into question is when you say: “[what] hell [...] will be like is a mystery, [but] we can know that is eternal, it is a place of regret etc.”
I disagree. A strong argument can be made that the judgment of Gehenna was not ‘everlasting’. Eternal in consequence yes (Israel is no longer God’s chosen people), but the Pharisees and teachers of the law are not dying every day. I basically follow Andrew Perriman on this point (whose views, I take it, are similar to NT Wright’s). The judgment on Israel Jesus foresees (e.g. in Mark 13) is clearly an historical judgment--and not a post-mortem metaphysical judgment.

We could perhaps quibble about this, but my point was and is simply that to talk of ‘hell’ is already to presuppose too much. I find it dangerous to wed talk of judgment and justice with metaphysical assumptions about the ‘afterlife’.

But maybe I’m wrong…

Peace,
-Daniel-

Deaubry, the Lazarus passage in Luke 16 takes place in Hades (both the place of torment and “Abraham’s bosom” are in the place of the dead). This is simply not the same as the judgment of Gehenna, which Jesus warns his disciples about.
Further the fact that this is a parable should make us wonder what the point of the parable is, rather than whether or not it’s an accurate description of the so-called ‘afterlife’.
As I said earlier, conflating Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna is entirely unhelpful, since these are different concepts.

Peace.

Lets all sing “People need the Lord” a few more times-- that should do the trick.

I heard the movie critic Michael Medved, who is Jewish, discuss this.

He asked “Why do people get angry at Christians who share their faith and ask if you are saved.? I find it flattering that a Christian friend thinks I’m worth saving and is concerned enough about me to share their what they believe with me.”