The difference here, BeHim, is that there is difference in interpretation as to whether the offense (homosexuality) is sinful or not in the first place.  And that is a difference.

I’ve heard no one try to say that pornography isn’t sin.  Same with illegal drugs.  No one has tried to make a case that drugs aren’t sinful.

But with the issue of homosexuality, there ARE people who believe the Bible is silent on the issue.  I don’t believe that; but some people do.

I am not preaching tolerance.  I am against the ‘normalization’ of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle; I’m not for gay adoption; etc.  But that doesn’t mean that I am going to ‘condemn them with their sin’ any more than I am the person next door.  Why?  Because it doesn’t work.  That’s my whole point.  If I want to reach my neighbor or the gay man down the street, I have to 1.  establish some type of a relationship with them and 2.  treat them with respect as I discuss how I believe.  Hitting them on the head with a Bible will only cause them to strike back.

On the issue of pornography; I have personal experience with this one.  I had a dear friend who was way in over his head into pornography.  It was his secret sin; and I was the one who discovered it.  I did exactly as you are doing with the issue of homosexuality… I sat down; confronted him with his sin; and told him he needed to get it right and repent of the behavior.  But here’s the key difference:  I knew him.  He was my friend.  We were in relationship together.  That gave me leverage.  That gave me the personal contact I needed to confront him head to head.  We (you and I) don’t have that same liberty with most homosexuals because we don’t know them… we don’t have the relationship… we don’t have that leverage to go to them and say, ‘hey friend, you’re really goofing up in this area and you need to repent’.  When I don’t have this kind of relationship, those words are like a loud symbol… they don’t want to hear it; they won’t listen; and they have no effect.

That’s why I call for respect and patience in dealing with these issues.  Not for tolerance.  Respect.  I really do think that it’s the best way to legitimately have the chance to make a change.

Sometimes I think some people feel like they are free from their obligation when they call people on their sin.  It’s easy to say, “Repent, sinner”’ or ‘your lifestyle is an abomination to the Lord’ (or quite frankly I could list a long list of lines that have been used by some at this blog).  I think some feel that they have done their job when they do that… you may feel release, but you’re not doing anything to help facilitate change.

So… I guess I’m saying, BeHim that, yes, I think you do have to mix respect with reproof.  Actually, a better way of saying it is that reproof will get you no where without respect.  You can do both, and stay true to your integrity and true to the Word at the same time.

Todd

BWS,

Please take a moment to read the previous posts and comments:

http://www.mmiblog.com/monday_morning_insight_we/2005/06/outreach_at_gay.html

You’ll find that it’s not that cut and dry to some.  Those are the people we’re talking about.  They interpret I Cor. much differently than you or I.

Todd

I agree Todd, the Bible is a great sword but it is not a good club. You will not convert the drunk or any one else for that matter by beating their sin over their head.

ok you dont like 1 cor lets go to romans chapter 1 (I know I am not telling you anything new) and people can say what they want to about the passage as they can with many chapters in the Bible but it says what it says. Hey like I said in my last note I agree you have to build a relationship, I asked a church one time did they believe that God could save a person who has had a gender change operation, could God save that person, they all said oh yes sure, I said ok would he be welcome in your chruch, I recieved no response.

I think it is clever of satan to keep us entangled in the web of “christians trying to point out the sin in peoples lives vs. the sinner pointing out christians being judgmental.” We go back and forth with this and usually find ourselves missing the important truth. 

If I were to convince a homosexual that their lifestyle is sinful by putting up a sign that says “homosexuality is always condemned in the bible, turn from your sin” and say they change their behavior, what have I accomplished?  It would be obvious that I have changed their will, but not obvious that their heart has been changed.  So, we, the church, then embraces what turns out to be a moral unbeliever who never knew God or why they were trying to find happiness in a homosexual relationship, only that it is wrong. They then spend years with the understanding that a christian is one who lives a clean and upright life, the checklist is created, they take great pride in the fact that they’re pretty upright people and then the sin that they will ultimately be condemned for “unbelief” is left unaddressed and so they live church life with a false assurance of salvation because we’ve told them that changing their behavior is the same as changing their heart.  In the end we have robbed God of his glory because God was never the issue.

Is this making sense to anyone? 

So, then, what is the answer?  Rather than filling our churches with moral people who know nothing of God because we chose to address the manifestation of unbelief (homosexuality) rather than THE sin, unbelief (which is the only sin that will condemn anyone to a christ-less eternity) Shouldn’t we be putting up signs that say something like this:

SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD GOD’S INVISIBLE QUALITIES - HIS ETERNAL POWER AND DIVINE NATURE - HAVE BEEN CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, SO THAT MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE Rom 1:20

That verse is not saying that they are without excuse in their sinful choices.  This verse is saying they are without excuse in not believing in God.  So, in the verses to follow, Paul shows what happens when people live a life of unbelief (sin).  They do all manners of evil, including but not limited to homosexuality.  So, then, it is not the homosexual lifestyle that will send one to hell.  It is unbelief.  Not believing that God is all satisfying, so they’re going to find satisfaction elsewhere.  When we do this, we cease to glorify God, which is why man was created, therefore we are sinning.

Sorry for the time taken, but we have got to make God central to the church because he is God.  I would love it if we could just think about that for even a day and I believe we’d realize how little thought we give to God at all.

I’ve read the blog’s and I agree a lot with Todd’s comments. The church has a really bad black eye when it comes to Grace. And by Grace I DO NOT mean sanction or permission. BUT I do mean looking past the sin to the sinner. In my experience we’ve really blown it in the area of how to treat the victims of divorce. Yes, I believe there are some who are honest victims, certainly children of divorce. Yet I’ve seen awful rejection, and shame aimed at the children of divorce from...mmm the church. I hope and pray through these discussions and prayer we do a better job of reaching the homosexual community with the message of grace. And I haven’t seen too many sinners beating down our church doors after I’ve leveled my “judgement” of their sin. However, I’ve seen the repentant come to Christ through loving relationships and a hand of love and understanding. Interesting that Christ never spoke of homosexuality! And it was certainly rampant in his day. However he really came down on the pompous religious folk. Do I believe Homosexuality is a sin, of course. But so are lustful thoughts, greed, anger etc. You know the list. The key, to me, is not whether it’s a sin, it’s in how we administer God’s grace so that people will come to repentance. Romans 2:4 rings a bell,”..do you not know that it is the patience, lovingkindness and forbearance of God that leads you to repentance.” How long did God wait in his love and longsuffering for you to overcome the sin in your life? Can we be any less for those caught in sin’s hold? Intercession, words seasoned with kindness and actions filled with Grace. My cousin an old time preacher used to say,"you can attracted a lot more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.” The gospel was meant to be honey to the soul in need of salvation.

Good morning, Todd.
Thank you for continuing on this issue.
As nicely as I can. . .LOL.. . I need to ask 3 questions. [1] What IS this “homosexual lifestyle” that people keep refering to?
[2] Could for a few moments consider that gay people can be honest, just as some straight people can be honest? [this is not a ‘given’ ]
If so, could you ponder for a moment - without clobbering us, please - that having a homosexual orientation is not something we choose, any more than any one of you chose to have a heterosexual oriention? [remember, I am telling you the truth from my experience. I am gay. I am a christian. I am comitted to Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.]

[3] Why do some of you appear to judge immediately that I am “in sin” and need to repent from being gay?  I see no need to repent for my orientation any more than I need to repent of the fact I am male or left-handed. [And please, do not take refuge in the oft-repeated biblical mis-readings.  Sorry. That is how I see you all: repeatedly bashing us with a few out-of-context passage from the Bible . . .which I pray with daily, btw. I too believe in the living Word of God. . . .in which we are enjoined to “render to God our reasonable/rational service”.

Jeremy

Todd, I agree with all that you said.  One of Ghandi’s principals was “Hate the sin, and not the sinner.” There was a better way to get the point across.  And as a pastor, I expect better from this leader of that church.

First of all the issue of homosexuallity is really a side issue. Like the drunkenesses, murder, adultery, false speaking, idolatry, to name a few that are condemmed in the Bible.

We are focused on fighting homosexuales and the ACLU, when we ought to remember that our fight is not with flesh and blood but powers in the spiritual plane.

The devil is good at distracting christians on side issues so that they disobey God in other areas.

Do you want prayer in school?
Teach your child to pray.

Do you want the 10 Commandments in public places?
Start with your home, teaching them to your family in the morning, evening, at the table hangin on your door post.

Do you want to save marriage?
Love your wife as Christ loved the church, then exhort your brothers to do the same.

Do you want to see America return to her Christian roots?
Share Christ with americans. Obey Christ and preach the gospel, then disciples those that believe, teaching them to do the same.

You can witness to a homosexual without mentions his perversion. He is ready to fight you on that.

What you do is give him the good person test.

Ask him if he has ever lied, stolen, used God’s name in vain. His conscience, the Holy Spirit, and God’s Law will convict him and he will repent.

Likewise you that have lied, stolen, blashped the Lord’s name, not kept the sabbath day holy, placed God always in first place, coveted your neighbor’s anything, looked at a woman in lust, or hated his brother, will not inherit the kingdom of God unless you turn to Christ and repent of your sins.

Not meaning to say you earn salvation, the Law was given to show the need for salvation not to earn it.

Wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is enternal life through Christ Jesus.

Hi all,

It might have been better if he had written,

“We don’t need one another’s affirmation--
we need God’s redemption, through Jesus Christ.”

I don’t need to affirm you or condemn you--for I am under the exact same sentence as you. Death by sin. Yet I am pronounced “not guilty” through no deed of my own.

The issue is neither the infallibility of the text of the Bible, nor is it whether or not homosexuality is a sin--

the issue is one of self-justification.

If I am a sinner, worse than most, what business do I have in judging someone else. No, my job is to throw myself under the protection and care of the resurrected Christ so that God will see me in His clothes.

It is selfish in the extreme to assume that we would begin to know how someone else should act--when we aren’t able to dismiss from our lives the other “minor” (i.e. less visible) sins found in Romans 1, and most importantly the sin of judgment which is shown up to us as greatest of all in Romans 2.

Judging another human being as being unworthy of Christ because of what it is they do is to pull judgment on ourselves at the same time. It is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It is straight out wrong. And blasphemy of the Holy Spirit--the denial of God’s power in the lives of humans--has another name: agnosticism.

I am Christian. I am also agnostic. I can’t SEE your sin, let alone do anything about it. And one thing I do know from personal experience in knowing God. God CAN do something about it.

If we could spend more time worshipping God and spreading a pure message of salvation by grace alone, by faith alone, then we will have no longer any need to count the sins of others. We will be too joyful about the sins that have already been cast off from us!

-C

Todd-

Is the real issue a lack of faith/courage to stand-up for righteousness? Look at John the Baptist.  Why was his head handed-over on a platter?  Would you have advised him to tone it down? 

Just asking,,, what’s the difference with John the Baptist speaking out about sexual immorality, and the Pastor in your article?

...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247

Bernie asks,

Is the real issue a lack of faith/courage to stand-up for righteousness?

No, I don’t think so.  At least not for me.  If I was afraid to stand up for righteousness, then I would not have told you where I stand on this issue.  I’ve made no mistake about stating my belief that the Bible is clear in it’s condemnation of homosexuality.

All I am saying is that taking the two examples we’ve shared here at the blog (the church who handed out water at the gay pride day; and the pastor who posted this on his sign), I think the church handing out the water has the greatest chance to make an impact with the gay community.  That is what this is all about, isn’t it… reaching the lost (in this case, the ‘gay’ lost)?

I think there is a fine line here between declaring the truth so that people will listen; and declaring the truth, period.  I think many times, the Christian community (as a whole) acts irresponsbily… that’s why we have many of the stereotypical problems that we do. 

For example, many people view Christians as unloving.  Why?  Because while we are standing up for truth, we trash the individual.

Many people view Christians as hypocritical?  Why?  Because while we are declaring the truth, we have a big log in our eye.

Many people view Christianity as close-minded.  Why?  Because while we are declaring the truth, we forget to listen to to other people’s opinions (even/especially if we don’t agree).

The end result of the pastor’s sign (by the pastor’s own admittance): 

“cheering and condemning” from those against homosexuality; and

“same genders acting a certain way around the sign and doing things,” from those in favor of homosexuality.

Nothing was really gained other than inciting both fringes; dividing us even more than we were before.

As for “what’s the difference with John the Baptist speaking out about sexual immorality, and the Pastor in your article?”

Hmmm… one is John the Baptist and one is not. 

Todd