I’ve noticed that when many of you have weak answers for what you believe, you want to kick someone off. I wander what you people would have said to John the Baptist or Elijah ? Bernie makes you guys look like first year (secular) college students…

Dalton Dalton Dalton.

Do you feel it’s your calling to be absolutely obnoxious?

You’re good at it.

And if Bernie is so smart...perhaps your the yang to his yin?

Bernie,

Of course, I should follow Leonard’s advice (and will after this).  But since you responded to me that you ARE offering us insights FROM YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES about the right way to do ministry (in this case, build a church staff) . . .

Could you please read back through your posts on this thread and point me to the ones where you said . . .

“Here are some examples of how I’ve raised up pastors (or staff members) from within the ministry that I lead and am fully responsible for (in a ‘buck stops with me’ sort of way).”

I read back through and couldn’t find the post where you told of your personal experiences on this subject.  When you can cite some examples of people you’ve (personally) hired from within the organization which you (personally) lead, after raising them up and creating the practical environment conducive to leaving the marketplace for ministry . . . then I promise my ears will listen and hear.  Until then, I’m afraid you lack the experiential credibility to tell everyone here the one way to staff a church correctly.

Wendi

As a Senior Pastor, I receive a 6 or so requests each year to go to another church.  It is always a bigger church than I currently pastor.  I handle this in a couple ways.  Personally I live with great confidence of my calling.  That for me means that I am sure where I am is where I am supposed to be.  I do not let difficulty of ministry influence my sense of calling.  To do this would impair my ability to lead and love the people in front of me.  By not allowing difficulty to influence my sense of calling I see everything within the scope of my calling as a SP as a matter of obedience and thus an outflow of God’s love for me and that love in return.  Simply stated I do not deal with difficult people because I love them but because I love God and he loves them.  I grow to love them when His love flows through me. I am not mature or strong enough to deal with every difficult situation or person apart from this perspective.

On a church level, I have chosen a few trusted people to share the requests with.  I ask them to pray for my response and for wisdom.  I ask them to pray that God would help me discern if he is speaking or someone is just looking.  As a leader it is critical that people have confidence in that leadership and the commitment of that leadership to the church.  I make sure that I do nothing to shake people’s confidence.  Only once in my ministry did I feel as though it was time to go and that was confirmed by those trusted people.  When that time came I told my church.  Their confidence was not shaken because I told them about my process. 

As you search for a new senior pastor I would suggest you look for people who are looking.  This can be done easily today through the web and other organizations who handle this kind of stuff.  I would also look at the kind of leader you seek and see who fits that bill, if they are at a church I would contact them privately and ask if there is any sense that God might be moving them to a new place.  If so ask them the protocol for their church.  If not leave them alone.  My two cents, that and 2 dollars will get you a big soda from 7-11.

Leonard,

Do you share those requests with your elders (or whoever has oversight responsibility for you)?  Why or why not?

I ask this because I use the same method as you, however in my former church the group to which I shared did not include my senior, or any of our elders.

Snoop

Wendi wants me to write this:
“Here are some examples of how I’ve raised up pastors (or staff members) from within the ministry that I lead and am fully responsible for (in a ‘buck stops with me’ sort of way).”

Wendi- I have impact everywhere I go.  I talk to and meet with church leaders all the time, and have impact with them, just as a fellow electron in the orbit of an atom.

Yes, it’s true I don’t have a large staff.  But I have had management positions in my secular work, and I head-up a Christian ministry and have been trained in all the basics, and I have experience.  You are overly concerned with reputation.  Suggestion: try looking into the logic and mindset of any critique, rather than being so impressed by credentials.  If credentials impress you, you would not have been impressed by John the Baptist and Jesus while they walked the earth-- both outsiders and outcasts to the “one true religion” (they were even killed by the religious elite).  I question your allegiance and desire for “religious authority” and reputation.  It’s not difficult to have a great reputation as a person of God, yet be dead.  Some churches are like that:

Revelation 3:1 (Jesus judging the churches)
To the angel of the church in Sardis write:These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

...Bernie

“What about the senior pastor?  When should the senior pastor tell the staff and the elders that he is talking to another church? “

I think pretty late in the game. He needs a few people who he can trust to help him discern, but I’ve seen a SP tell his staff FAR too early that he was considering moving… when it didn’t happen, he might have damaged his relationship with those people. If he’d waited just a little longer… no damage would have been done for sure.

Oh, and Dalton,

Congratulations,

You’ve just made the list of people that I will never respond to again. I and others have asked you repeatedly to change your tone, and you have refused to do so. I might suggest a biblical word study for you on the word “respect.” It has been given to you here, but not by you.

Goodbye.
Peter

Hey Everyone,

I think, when we’re talking about some of these issues, that you have to realize that some people commenting here really don’t know enough to even have an opinion.  (Yet they post anyway).  If the post doesn’t effect you (for instance, this post on hiring church personnel) or if you have no experience in the area of the post (for instance, this one on hiring church personnel); then think twice about posting your opinion and/or holding your opinion over those who actually are living the life/dealing with the effects of the post.

Bernie and Dalton are good examples in this post.  Antagonizers antagonize.  Don’t be too quick to take their bait.

Todd

Snoop, I do not feel goaded at all.  I guess the incompletness of my answer is standing out to you.  When I went through this in the past, the order in which I revealed this transition was to my staff, then to my elders and then to the church. 

As for mantaining the confidence of my staff, I do not find this difficult.  I love these guys, believe in them, pray for them and undestand I am a steward of these relationships before God.  When God says go we need to go, but the stewardship he has placed in our hands for relationships and ministry are of vital importance.  This is a sacred trust from God to any pastor.

Perhaps I was unclear.  I automatically assumed that you brought the staff in on the news that you would be moving on before anyone else, I guess my statement was more along the lines of the process, and whether you were allowing your team to go through the process with you, or if they were only allowed in on it at the end.  My statement about betrayal was made from the assumption that they were only brought in at the end…

and for the record:  When I used the word emerging I was in no way lending support to, or decrying the emergent movement, Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, or anyone else that is identified by the emergent label.

FYI-

I wrote a few long posts, and deleted them, because I don’t want to perpetuate a stupid argument (with no hope of ending or coming to a polite resolution) about qualifications.

Let me just say that I wish people would engage discussions in a thoughtful way.  Explain why you believe things, and offer scriptural support if possible.  I open to learn new things, so if you think I’m wrong, please share logically and scripturally.

I’m going to do my best to ignore any other responses, which I’m sure will come from those who don’t agree with me, yet only want to comeback with a personal attack, rather than facing the concepts and mindsets head-on.  Again, I know the attacks will come, such as “Well, Bernie, you are a hypocrite because you attack..” etc.  I will do my best to ignore these… and focus on logic and scriptural application…

...Bernie

I find this to be a fascinating topic, because I am in a system that works in a fairly different way. I haven’t read through all 3 pages of discussion, but our system is less of a hire/fire type mentality. For better or worse, I’m not sure, I think both in some respects. Though we acknowledge that this is a human arrangement (ie. no direct scriptural mandate to work this way), it’s the way our denomination has chosen, and we believe strongly that God works through his people in this process.

We deal with “calls”, which would be similar to offers of employment in more general terms. There is no real concept of “putting a resume out there” without people knowing about it. If someone is looking to move, it’s because of an evaluation process that has already been undertaken - it wouldn’t be a secret, generally.

If a church wants to call me to serve there, they do so as a congregation (the voters of a church must approve this “call”, not just a committee or one staff member - this follows from the belief in Biblical elders/pastors being appointed by consensus in 1 Tim. 4 and Tit. 1). Churches have various ways of sending a call - some do lots of research before sending a call, some do almost none ("a pastor is a pastor is a pastor” - that discussion requires a whole lot more space I have here! ). Calls are made directly to a worker, if there are multiple pastors/workers on staff, and “permission” is not asked beforehand. (I agree with those who disagree with the Father-Daughter mindset here.)

Our protocol is that when one receives a “call”, one notifies his/her congregation, and other staff, if any. The congregation is asked to pray and to help offer input to the person in making the decision (needless to say, in healthy situations most people don’t want the worker to leave). We do this because when we receive a call, the congregation who sent it genuinely believes that God has called this person to come and work among them. The worker is then free, after much prayer and seeking counsel, to accept the call and move, or decline and remain at the current place of ministry.

Some congregations will contact a worker before sending an official call, which I think is a good thing (though many in my denomination would disagree). At that point, the worker may use his/her discretion as to whether to notify anyone else. It all depends on the situation - some are just “feelers” being put out, some are more serious about leading to an official call.

It’s not a perfect system, but I believe in general it is founded on a strong foundation and is guided by a genuine desire to do what God would have us do.

Michael.