COOL!  Especially the part about caring for the “people far from God..”

I was struck by Bill’s comment that most pastors only dream about this kind of impact...if that dream is planted in our hearts and God desires for the kingdom to come on earth, what fills the gap between dream and reality?

“You may think that a church that cares for lost people is normal,” Mr. Hybels said. “The average church on the corner of Elm and Vine doesn’t give a flying rip about people far from God. They’re an annoyance. They use bad words. They sleep in the wrong bed. They drink too much booze. They’re an annoyance.”
I agree that many older churches are composed of elderly congregants who are opposed to change. They are stuck in the 1950’s mode of worship while surrounded by boomers and boomer children who have been exposed to television, video games, DVD’s, VHS, and every other type of media since birth. Many older churches, stuck in the middle of aging homes and multicultural-economically challenged neighborhoods, are afraid of what might happen if infiltrated by these undesirables.  They are afraid of change. They are afraid of PowerPoint, and guitars, and long hair, and blue jeans, and you name it. They are caring for those within the body of believers.
There are thousands of churches at “Elm and Vine”. Most pastors will never experience the phenomenon, or should I say miracle, of a six-thousand member church. Yes…most pastors will have only the “Elm and Vine” type churches on their resume for a lifetime. What does that say for the poor pathetic pastor who will never live up to the “Big Guys” in the ministry?  Is he any less of a pastor? Should he live with the stigma that he shoulda/coulda done better? My heavens…what will my family think of me? Never enough money in the bank because he chooses, or maybe… No… it may be that God has placed him in that annoying, bad word using, sleeping “in the wrong bed”, booze drinking, crap hole of a body of believers at “Elm and Vine”.
I work in two churches- One as a bi-vocational youth pastor to multicultural- economically challenged neighborhood youth within one of these sinful crap hole churches full of old people who are doing their best to get out of bed and get to worship on Sunday mornings - they minister to one another while watching each other die of old age. The other is in a five-thousand member church as a facilities worker. I get to see both worlds clearly and I can say that I will take the crap hole any day.
Can you sense a struck nerve?
Pastors of small “Elm and Vine” churches…Thank God for where He has placed you. Love your flock. Be content where you are – go to the Letters and discover again the kinds of people Paul worked with. God has placed you at “Elm and Vine” for a reason. God is using you in ways that will only be apparent after you reach heaven and the fog has cleared.

Unbelievable.

Quote:

“The early church was exploding with growth. Israel was not a small group and yet God moved in and through them to reveal himself to the world.”

I don’t know what version of the bible you read, but it clearly states that God has always chosen the small and insignificant to display His power.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem, “too little to be among the clans of Judah,” (Micah 5:2), was raised in Nazareth, a town that had a bad reputation (John 1:46), in a country and people that was one of the smallest in the known world, a country with the distinction of knowing that:

“The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,” (Deutoronomy 7:7)

So, please, read your bible and understand that God, while also using mega-complexes despite its size (not because of), has always favored the small.  Why?  Because when a group of people become too large, it is very easy to begin to think of one’s self as something special, which leads to one moving from complete trust in the Lord to trusting the power that a large number of people can amass. 

This was true with the Tower of Babel, with Israel when God warned David not to take a census of the people, and to the Christ-Marts of today.  I am of the belief that the so-called “power” and “success” that many eagerly attribute to large organizations is not from God but rather from the collective abilities of a large number of people who desire to “make a name for themselves,” ala the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6ff).

Regarding your remark about the Early Church, yes, it grew exponentially which resulted in its becoming complacent.  God allowed persecution to break up the large so that they can be more easily scattered among the lost, thus being far more effective in building relationships with the lost that would lead to their salvation.

Face it, Matt, small things have a far more easier time fitting into tight places that do large.  It is because of their size that mega-complexes are losing the battle in reaching the vast numbers of people who see them as being no different than corporate America.

People, real people, crave real relationships, which CANNOT be found within the cold steel or brick and mortar walls of the institutionalized church.  Why do you think that there’s been a continuing drop in the number of people attending churches? 

Small has always been God’s preference, although somehow we think we know better than He does.

Quote:

“guard your heart, dude. When you slam a church of any size, you’re slamming the bride of Christ. And if someone was dogging my wife, I’d get pretty pissed.”

As for “slamming a ‘church,’” what makes you think that organizations are automatically a “church?” When you drive by a building with a cross or dove or world on it, do you do so with some sort of reverence?  I don’t.  They’re nothing but buildings occupied by members of the Church but in no way resemble the biblcial Church.

Regarding dogging a “wife,” all I can say is that many of us will be surprised to find out that this so-called “bride of Christ” of today is nothing more than a man-made creation in drag.

BTW, thanks for being concerned for my heart.

do you think if some comment-ers above spent as much time, energy, passion and effort in their small “crap hole” churches as they spent on their responses to this blog that their church wouldn’t seem so “crappy”?  come on guys, get a life.  either that, or let’s start posting odds so we can bet on who will win these meaningless fights.

You’re right, Ricky...anyone should be ashamed to be a part of a large church.  Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

Now that you’re my mentor, can you please tell me how large a church can get?  When is it too big?  I’d hate to have too many people come to my church.  So I need to know when to lock the doors and call the cops.  Please give me direction.

And what am I supposed to do about the nagging inclination that I have to share Jesus with people and to create a church where they can find Him.  I need to get rid of that...please help.  I’d like to find myself a little more rigid and embittered...but I’m not sure where to go for that?  The seeker churches have their models (Willow, Saddleback, Northpoint, etc.); who are the models for churches like this so that I can learn from them?

Matt:

“Now that you’re my mentor, can you please tell me how large a church can get? When is it too big? I’d hate to have too many people come to my church. So I need to know when to lock the doors and call the cops. Please give me direction.”

Well, Grasshopper, you must first unlearn the way you’ve been taught.  This will be as difficult as it is to grasp the pebble from my hand.

You’re thinking too territorial when you wonder how big a “church” should be.  In fact, The Church consists of countless numbers of souls, although we always tend to wrongly equate the Church as being an organization.  When we begin to think of “church” as an organization that must be managed by men instead of increased by Jesus Himself at His will and through His Spirit, we have ceased to think about The Church as the bible describes her.

Our job, so to speak, Grasshopper, is to “do” just what Jesus did with His disciples: become acutely intimate with a small number in whom you can pour His life into and be willing to give up the need for affirmation through larger numbers.  This will always lead to pride, as Hybels so putridly exhibited in the article.

Quote:

“And what am I supposed to do about the nagging inclination that I have to share Jesus with people and to create a church where they can find Him.”

Ah, missed the pebble again, eh?

Get one thing straight, Matt, the moment you “create a ‘church’” (which is completely impossible to do), you are no longer being the Church, which we are called and gifted to be, but rather misrepesenting it and the One who builds it.

That “nagging inclination” is nothing more than the well-intentioned but biblically inaccurate assumption that God can’t win any souls unless you “create a ‘church’.”

As fellow “living stones,” how can we build anything for God?  It is He and He alone who does the building.  We are privileged just to be a “living stone,” which is exactly what draws others to HIM.

Quote:

“I need to get rid of that...please help. I’d like to find myself a little more rigid and embittered...but I’m not sure where to go for that? The seeker churches have their models (Willow, Saddleback, Northpoint, etc.); who are the models for churches like this so that I can learn from them?”

The chains of “bitterness” and “rigidness,” my young padawon, belong to those who accuse others of the same when their own pride is challenged.  For me personally, I have never seen where one person who disagrees with the majority of posters on this site regarding “church” has ever called that majority “bitter” or “rigid,” although the moment someone challenges their stand, it’s always because we’re “embittered.”

But how do you know for sure that the “models” you mentioned are biblically accurate representations of the New Testament Church?  The mere naming of the organizations declares that they are not of Christ but rather of “Paul, of Silas, of Peter, or Apollos.”

When was the last time that you studied church history?  Any honest, objective study would reveal that today’s understanding of “church” is light years apart from that of the New Testament.  Or does that just not bother you?

In your quest for the truth, Grasshopper, remember to include it in your search.  Then and only then will you grasp more than the pebble that is in my hand.

Ah so.

Todd- after I wrote that post about church planting, I looked on google.  Here’s a great example… even in my neck of the woods:

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/555
“Why YOU Should Plant a Church”

Snippet:

The question isn’t “Why should I plant a church”… it’s why shouldn’t you! Here’s what I know: God loves it when His people take a step of faith. He will go ahead of you, with you and behind you in this adventure. If you love those He brings you, you will be a success whether it lasts for a year, two years or the rest of your life.

So go ahead- take the leap. Plant a church! And let me know how I can help.

Bob Hyatt is husband to Amy, father to Jack and lead pastor to the evergreen community in Portland, OR (http://www.evergreenlife.org). He is also in the beginning stages of launching the nextChurch network (http://www.nextchurchnetwork.org), dedicated to encouraging church planting through encouraging church planters.

I have been a member of big, small and medium churches.  They are all different.  I know that Bill Hybels meant well when he made his comment.  I disagree with his assessment that the typical church does not care about the people around them.  They do.  Most churches I have been in did and do care. 

Not all big churches are evangelistic - let’s set that straight.  I know the stories of some of the mega-churches came about because of local church splits that benefited the soon to be “mega-church.” Some big churches are the result of redistributing Christians for a variety of reasons beyond church splits.

I have pastored two small churches and the comment I hear is “Why don’t the people come to our church when we invite them?” I look into their sad eyes and state, “I don’t know.  Jesus said he would build the church and we are to be faithful in going with the good news.”

In one large church I attended there was no visitation program.  People joined through two means:  networks of evangelistic friends or the building.

I do know of some small churches that remain small because of internal conflict or an aging congregation that can’t visit.  I was on a mission trip to a small church in Long Island.  It remained small because the Catholic Bishop in that Catholic community told the faithful not to have anything to do with those heretical Baptists.  That small church had its lovely building broken into and trashed.  Teens used the parking lot at night for a “lover’s lane” from beer cans and used condoms found there. 

In 1987 I was staying in El Paso, TX, for two weeks.  I was eating lunch in the hotel restaurant and a lovely elderly couple next to me engaged me in conversation.  They invited me to their church - it was small but it cared for the visitor to their city.

Yes, I disagree with Mr. Hybels.  I know he is sincere be he sees the small church through the lens of his experience.  God has blessed him with talents and with people who were willing to follow the dream.  He is where God has placed Him. 

The comment about the early church being big is part of the church growth movement’s obsession with numbers.  Not all of the churches in the New Testament were big and some of the bigger ones received harsher criticism in the various letters. 

I believe small churches do care - we just have to depend upon the Lord to build as we faithfully pray and labor.

It seems as if we got a little sidetracked with which model of church growth is better and with whether mega churches are the greatest or the worst thing to come along since sliced bread.

That may be a good topic for another thread; the proper structuring of the body of Christ (or even whether it should have a structure.)

However, I believe the quote from Pastor Hybels was about the hearts of the members of the churches on “Elm and Vine,” not about whether their pastors measure up to the pastors in the small churches.

I believe Pastor Hybels was pointing out a fairly accurate perspective that in many churches (large or small), the people are more interested in “doing church right” than reaching the hurting and lost. Many are good about meeting the needs of their congregants, but couldn’t care less about the needs of those “sinners.”

I don’t think the issue is about how large or how small a church is, I think it is about whether we have a heart for the lost, as Jesus did.

I am the volunteer youth pastor for a local small congregation (about 100 members.) We have some who “get it,” and most who don’t. When I bring up ministry ideas to reach out to the lost and the hurting in our community, I get comments like: we can’t afford that, and what about the needs of our own people (wow, what’s up with that.) I have been involved in other small churches, because I enjoy the intimate nature of small churches, but I would love to find a small church with a heart for giving, and not just recieving. I know they are out there, and God bless you if you are in a church like that, but from my personal experience, the majority of people in any size church have a very consumer oriented heart.

Thank God for those in any size church who care about the lost and the hurting and are willing to do something about it.

I’ve been serving at an “Elm and Vine” church (actually we are at Elm & University!) for nearly 8 years as a Music Director. We even have a historical marker on the building. There is a rich tradition of worshipping the past at my church, and I have come across many negative attitudes to growth and change. During my 8 years I’ve seen a few pastors come and go. The ones who told this church how bad they were for worshipping heritage and resisting change did not affect hardly any change and were miserable in the process. The one pastor who came here to love this church and be Christ-like in his shepherding and guiding has actually affected more change and is very happy in his serving.
The lesson that I’ve learned is to stick it out and try to be a part of the solution, and remember that the grass is not always greener somewhere else. In fact, it still has to be mowed, fertilized and cared for, no matter where you go. Remember we’re all “moving on to perfection” (not there yet.) The church is in the world, and sometimes it’s going to be very worldly. As servants and leaders in the church we should keep pointing the way, serving as Christ would serve, and loving the church through it’s trials and triumphs.

Blessings,
Susan in Texas

Many of the Elm and Vine churches are indeed places for older faithful people to die. And, as long as they are not expecting much praise for their outreach efforts or personal piety, they will be happy in the Kingdom.

But there is another side to these churches. I have pastored in the inner city, among Mexican and Guatemalan immigrants for a time. We rented from a couple of small churches--using Saturday night for our worship time--and ended up having to leave, in part because of the active unwillingness of those churches to compromise, readjust, and make room for another group.

Yes, I agree with Pastor Hybels. Many of the Elm and Vine churches do not give a rip for those who are outside and different. More than that, they can be an active stumbling block for those who are outside to come in. They are not being faithful to small group ministry because there is no growth, either in piety or in numbers.

Small group ministry is about growth in piety and holiness, and even in evangelistic outreach. And one who does not keep the royal law, the new commandment, and does not grow in the keeping of that commandment is not a disciple, though they may very well be a child of God who will inherit the Kingdom. That is, many Elm and Vine churches are, at best, spiritual nurseries where the pastors change diapers and try to keep the flock from damaging each other or getting a severe case of spiritual diaper rash.

Are there good Elm and Vine churches? Of course! But, frankly, I am beginning to believe that they are the minority.

Now that is my rant.