On the negative comments that Slice tended to receive: I haven’t spent a lot of time over at Slice, but my impression is that it is primarily an “anti-” blog; i.e., much of what is written there is a rail against something going on elsewhere in the kingdom of God (a la against “another” WC conference).  You reap what you sow.  When you plant those kinds of seeds, you’re going to get comments made in kind...negative, oppositional ones.  Isn’t that why so many people outside the kingdom are negative on “Christians” - they see us bickering among each other and campaigning against whatever we’re against, and we are perceived (all-too-rightly so) as being very negative.

On the things Jesus seemed to be “against”: I’ve noticed that Jesus’ words were most compassionate when he was addressing those who seemed to be most sinful (e.g., the woman caught in adultery; he was compassionate - “neither do I condemn you” but at the same time he was firm - “go and sin no more").  His harshest words seemed to be directed at the religious leaders ("you whitewashed tombs!").  But it strikes me that I can’t think of many occasions, if any, when Jesus focused on what we might call “doctrinal” issues; his condemnation of the Jews was targeted at their behaviors and self-inflicted rules and regulations that placed such an unattainable burden on everyone.  Yet our tendency, as Christians, is to focus on right belief so much that we neglect the call to right living.  That’s why I so love Jesus answer when asked about the greatest commandment: “Love God, love your neighbor; everything else hangs on these two.”

Maybe (and I recognize the heretical potential in what I’m about to say), but just maybe it matters more how we live out those two commandments than whether we win people to our view on origins and eschatology, baptism and communion...or even eternal security or limited atonement.

I’ve never been over to “Slice” so I can’t comment on that.  I did agree with a lot of what Ingrid said especially that it’s about time Christians not only believe the Bible but truly live it out too.  Especially the parts about putting others’ interests ahead of our own, forgiveness and reconciliation.  On the other hand although I’m sure many have left the Church or rebelled because of what they see going on there (or don’t see), I also think people (especially teens) will just do what ever they want to do and use whatever excuse they can to justify it.  For example I know several ‘prodigals’ from good Christian families in our church and the fact is we’ve never had a church split and there’s very little bickering that I know of.  In fact we emphsize practical Christian living.  Of course we’re not perfect - what church is?- but people will walk away from Christ no matter what.  For those of us who’ve never rebelled or doubted the Lord’s hand in our life that’s hard to understand but it’s gg to continue to happen no matter what.  That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t address issues as we see them arise - I just don’t think there’s something you can point to and say - THAT’s the problem.  My two cents

Excellent post!  I also grew up in that legalistic, condemning church atmosphere.  I have always seen Slice as one of those type of sites as well.  It surprises me to hear Ingrid seem to be on opposite ends of the spectrum in the same post.  She starts out legalistic and condemning and ends up wanting Christians to love each other as we should.  That is how the world knows we are disciples of Jesus Christ because of our love for each other and not picking out every thing a church or pastor does and tearing it apart.

Randy, I think you are absolutely correct.  We can’t of ourselves “win” anyone to Christ.  We can’t change anyone’s mind on doctrine.  That is the job of the Holy Spirit.  We are commanded to love God, love others and make disciples.  All of that is lived out.

I especially like this comment from Ingrid. “If the Gospel does not change our relationships, it is worthless.” That is certainly how it looks to the world.

But it is true that with all the “againsts” she posts, she shouldn’t be terribly surprised at the bickering in the comments. Not sure removing the comments section was the thing to do though. I get more from the comments and reactions here at MMI than I do from the articles sometimes…

I understand what Todd is saying about this particular article, but the tone of this article is not Ingrid’s usual tone.

Ingrid says, “Unless we can love each other, really care about the well-being of our brothers and sisters in Christ, we have nothing to offer the world.” This is not her usual tone at Slice of Laodicea, or the tone of almost everything else I have read at Slice.

Most of what I have read at Slice does not reflect the love she speaks about here.  Most of what I’ve read there is intolerant and condemning of other Christians.  The site does not seem to be about empowering ministry but rather it is about tearing down other ministries.

Ingrid says she stopped allowing comments because “the near constant bickering, the condemning, the ructions over minor issues unrelated to salvation was like a never ending nightmare.” You reap what you sow, if you run a negative blog you’re going to get a lot of negative comments.  If you constantly attack other people you’re going to get defensive comments.

That’s what I really like about MMI, it’s about empowering ministry. Some of the comments get negative, that’s the risk you run by allowing comments, but the posts are positive or informative, not negative attacks on other ministries.

When God created Adam and Eve he said the two will become one, the problems started when they tried to decide which one.  That is the age old history of conflict.  Imagine if blogging was available when Jesus was on earth, the negative words would have never stopped.  “I met Jesus the other day, didn’t like the way he rushed through the crowd.  If you claim to be the Son of God you should at least give a little time to everyone.” Or maybe; “Jesus was not very kind to the Pharisees again; he really needs to take lessons in etiquette.” How about; “Jesus wasted another opportunity to set people free today, he could have taken out a roman Garrison, but instead healed the centurion’s servant.” Or “Jesus allowed wasted resources today as costly ointment was poured over his feet” Wait, that one was written. 

Point is it that at slice and some other places what is done, written or said could actually be claimed as love were it not for the seeming lack of humility. Humility is what God uses to open the door for love to actually become real in another’s life.  It is what keeps us out of the “pronouncement of truth” into the marriage of “truth and Grace” Jesus came full of Grace and Truth by living among us.  Philippians 2 says that was and is ultimate humility.  What Jesus did fully represented the Father. 

I see this clearly because it is easy for me to give truth with no grace and then call the truth love.  It is easy for me to blast others who are not the “ONE” (see first paragraph.) Humility is not something God will do to you or give you.  He might humiliate you but he will not humble you.  Humility is a choice.  Many people (insert my name here) have been humiliated only to be more stubborn and prideful, or just plain preoccupied with self.  We have to choose humility.  My struggle with blogging is that it sometimes feed my pride.  I want people to know how smart I am instead of blessing others or learning from others. I am not saying we cannot be bold or blunt, have opinions or even express with passion thoughts, but humility always leaves room.  Room for others who are different, room for others who are wounded, room for others who are smarter, room for ourselves to be wrong and most importantly, room for the Holy Spirit to change, grow and unite us.  Thanks for you folks who leave that room.

Todd you questioned the veracity of this statement:

--a post saying 95% of ‘conversions’ are ‘backsliders’ within a year

Those are the numbers from a wide range of “evangelistic” efforts, be they the AG or any number of Revival efforts or missionary trips - that tragic result within a year, over 90% has been far too consistent. One can look at that and do a number of things:
- question the validity of the numbers and exit the realm of reality and enter the realm of suggestion.
- surmise that God hasn’t the power to keep people faithful after He has revealed Himself to them and gloriously saved them and indwelt them with His Spirit, thus rendering God less than All-powerful and man able to walk away from God contradicting what Jesus said in John 6 and what Paul said in 2 Tim. 1.
- or recognize that those individuals were false converts as Jesus described in the Parable of the Sower, recognize that it is important that we follow the examples laid out in generations before us where the law was used rightly to convict the sinner of their helplessness and making the gospel truly “Good News” - enlightening the hearer to the need for repentance from sin and unrighteousness and a pursuit of holiness, not self-righteousness, but genuine holiness.
To tell someone that they’ve simply back-slidden when they never slid forward in the first place leaves one to wonder - what will make it “stick” this time? God said in Is. 66:1-2 what He seeks and what type of a church He will bless - as it is written in vs. 2: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
What would help to lower the numbers in a stat like that would be for some “evangelists” to humble themselves enough to evaluate the message they are presenting and get back to a Biblical presentation of the plan of Salvation, not some story to get a decision and then expect the Holy Spirit to fill in the blanks.
Discernment ministries, like Slice, Old Truth, Apprising Ministries, etc… are to discern truth from lies, false movements from movements of God Almighty. They were needed back in the Apostolic age and are desperately needed today. Just a few thoughts...hope they last…

John 3:36:

In addition to questioning any possible (and unlikely) change in Ingrid’s posture, as Leonard said, I believe Todd was doing two other things when he recapped the SOL end of week posts.  First, I think he was questioning how Ingrid saw how each of these items was related to salvation, because she seemed to be indicating that anything which is not, is thus not worthy of the bickering and infighting she’d been experiencing on her blog.  A bit like the pot calling the kettle black, as I see it. Second, he questioned the kingdom value of her relentless efforts to expose every flaw she (personally) finds within evangelical Christendom . . .

Todd says: [I’d much rather spend my time equipping leaders to do the good work than bombarding them with things to complain about and stay away from.  What a dismal view on life and ministry.]

Me too Todd!!!

When Jesus told the parable of the sower (the example you use), I don’t believe He intended that His hearers look around, pointing their fingers at others, questioning what kind of soil everyone was or how effectively they had planted seeds.  Rather, I believe He intended that His hearers look into their own hearts, examine whether their own heart represented good and receptive soil and that each hearer examine their own efforts to produce good kingdom fruit. 

Be offering this parable, you offer us a good reminder to reflect on the condition of OUR OWN soil and the kingdom fruits OUR OWN seed casting has produced.  Neither you nor Ingrid provide a valid biblical reason for questioning the legitimacy of conversions God has given us no part of in the first place. As I see it, the only soil I have any biblical right to examine is on my own farm.  How are you doing farmer?

Wendi

Todd writes “Somehow I find it funny that the very same people who say we shouldn’t measure our effectiveness by numbers are the ones who are measuring our ineffectiveness by numbers or percentages.” It’s also possible that people just love the sound of their own voice. I’m not saying Ingrid is that person, but the fact that she has cut off comments is telling… Now anyone who finds her site can just read every word she posts as if it were gospel.

I’d love Ingrid to chime in on this one. Ingrid, are you reading?

I wonder, is there not room in the Christian community for “Slice?” Though none of you have said it, I believe that if Ingrid’s “Slice” was to disappear from the blog world, most of you would see that as a plus for our the cause of Christ. If I judge to harshly, please forgive me.

I pastor a rural Church in the isolated wheat fields of Oregon. And just about the only way for me to know what is going on [good or bad--positive or negative] in the Christian world is to read many Christian blogs that come from many perspectives. For me, I see “Slice” as an information disseminator. After I have received the information it is my responciblity to wade through it, check out the validity of it, then do whatever I may do with it.

Charles Spurgeon had a bit of the “Slice” in him. It is to bad more Christians didn’t pay more attention to his warning, to some of the modernism, that was invading the Church under the banner of progress. There is almost nothing left of the Church in Spurgeon’s homeland.

DanielR writes: “Most of what I’ve read there is intolerant and condemning of other Christians.” My reply to DanielR’s sentence is this [It will go over like a lead balloon]: Some Christians need to be condemned. I see condemned as acting our 2 Timothy 3:16, [Daniel may see it differently].

To place the word “intolerant” upon the back of a fellow Christian is a dangerous game. If any of you believe John 14:6, and teach it as absolute truth, you are labeled as “intolerant” by much of the World. We have allowed the world to make the word “intolerant” an ugly word. I dare say that our Lord can be very “intolerant.” Not too many survivors after the flood. Sodom didn’t receive tolerance forever. Anania and Sapphira.... Jesus’ tolerance with Laodicea had it’s limit. Jesus says in Matthew 7:22, “Many will say to me on that day,’Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in you name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.’” Notice, Jesus never said they didn’t do what they said they did. He, however, was condeming and intolerant or them in spite of all they did. Maybe, just maybe Ingrid is pointing out some of those people to us.

Finally, is there not someone you can think of, who is preaching from a pulpit today, that may be needing to be condemned or not tolerated? Don’t you believe that if you see it that it is your responciblity to point it out?

As I reread this post, I am tempted to delete it. It is poorly written and all over the place. But I will chance it and see the results. HEAR ME: if I receive criticism, rebukes, or correction, I will NOT respond in a negative way. I may ask you a question, but will NOT attack.

In Christ,
fishon

My personal frustration with the brothers and sisters at Slice is that they define Christianity very narrowly.  To be orthodox, at SoL, is to be conservative, Replublican and a certain brand of Reformed.  Question ‘Limited Atonement’, and you might as well set yourself on fire for apostacy (and I’m only slightly exaggerating). 
IF you agree with the folks at Slice that that‘s Christianity, then yes, everything else they have to say about the Emerging Church apostacy and the evils of PDL will follow.
If one operates under a different paradigm however, then the conclusions do not follow, and all you’re left with is what comes across as fundamentalistic maliciousness (’benefit of the doubt’ is not the usual SoL modus operandi...).
My two cents.
-Daniel-

I see your point Fishon, about whether there is a place for SoL and other sites like it, but I have to agree with Leonard when he said:

[To me, the people at slice and other places spend so much time as watchdogs over people with whom they disagree that they have lost the objectivity to see the issues clearly anymore.  Every statement is combed through looking for error; every misstatement is judged and compounded by misinterpretations or places upon which people simply disagree.  Brothers in Christ are vilified and castigated.]

And

[I think this scrutiny is leading us down a path of distraction in the kingdom of God.  It is causing us to wrestle with flesh and blood when this really is not our struggle.]

IMO, there is a place for SoL just like there was a place in Jesus world for the Pharisees, for us to observe as an example how getting off mission, losing our kingdom focus leads to legalism and complete ineffectiveness. 

I would love to challenge SoL to go for one week posting only great examples of what’s working.  These might not be articles about the kind of ministry practices I am prone to look for, but I wonder what would happen if for one week every article had to be only about great and effective stuff, and any article that included even the slightest criticism would be disallowed.  Personally, I don’t think Ingrid could do it.

Wendi

fishon,

I’m so GLAD you’ve found this diablog useful and helpful. It’s what I love about MMI, too. Perhaps we should have an MMI event somewhere where we DO all get together around a big table (with food of course) and just discuss stuff. How bout this, Todd. 2007 have the first annual MMI Innovative Ministry Forum… (I volunteer our church facility… so I don’t gotta drive nowhere… but I will drive if I must...)

Blessings on you all!
Peter