To echo Bernie Dehler’s comments, I believe that instead of concentrating on being “out of the box,” maybe we should be more concerned with understanding that finding new ways to win people usually ends up being just another attempt at being “busy,” like Martha, and that we should be more focused on the simplicity of just falling completely in love with Jesus and just being content with Him as that “necessary thing,” like Mary.

The early Church understood that making a place for Him was more important than reaching people, all of which was accomplished after “naturally” creating an atmosphere where nothing else mattered but Him.

Sadly “out-of-the-box” may very well end up becoming just another tired jinglistic slogan as organizations shuffle their strategy on discovering how they can survive (i.e., more people, more money, etc.) instead of concerning themselves with nothing else but pleasing Him.

There are to many churchs inside of the box. Plus, they only operate inside of the walls. There must be some immediate movement to the community if we are going to accomplish our visions. If God has limited his church to those inside the walls in the book of Acts. Where would we be today? This is the problem I see with connectional churches today. Have we become a country club?

Ricky said, “The early Church understood that making a place for Him was more important than reaching people, all of which was accomplished after “naturally” creating an atmosphere where nothing else mattered but Him.”

I am not sure what you are saying here.  Certainly, the early church Believers had a place in there individual lives where Christ was exalted above all else, but I see that the primary works of the NT church was evangelism and discipleship.  They turned the world upside down with the Gospel.  This doesn’t occur through dead liturgy and an “inside the four walls” mentality.  The NT church was a missionary movement to say the least.

Let’s face it, as much as we would all like to be “out of the box” people, it’s important to realize that we are more comfortable in those neat little boxes. Further, we would much rather say that we are a bit more enlightened and as a result, we’re “outside the box” or “beyond the box”, laboring in a “in the box church.”

Oh, and by the way, you/we are the church...or should I say box.

Lots of talk about checking out this book and that one.  Not trying ot be sanctimonious, but how about THE book.  The Bible is repleat with example after example of Jesus moving people “beyond the box”.  He did this by relationship, not program or method.  And while some systems are important ot running a muti-faceted church, the “box” is ultimately measured by the depth of the relationships within the walls.

Here’s an innovative idea. Let’s stop producing a bunch of programs at church that keep people busy, active and distracted and demand that pastors, elders and those seasoned in their faith disciple them. At this point a return to the basic art of discipleship, passion of prayer and worship, transparent community as pictured in Acts, and devotion to the teachings of Jesus would seem radical in many ways. Hmmmm…

i heard Andy Stanley comment one time that every old, trite way of doing something was in its day someones good idea that is now a golden cow around the churches neck. perhaps the real test for us trying to do things in a creative, relevant fashion will be if we are still married to our ideas of today in 10 years or still looking for creative ways to reach people. that will say a lot about us as we move forward. in 20 years our ideas of today will turn out to be something someone has to struggle with us to change. thats human nature, not Christ likeness.

I tell you what, I can be in the box, I can be out of the box. I dont go along with every new wim but I do like to be innovative. But if all these people spent as much time in the Bible and on their knees looking for ideas and answers as they do looking for some man made concoction to remedy the situation........just remember that what ever the new innovations are that whithout the Holy Spirit you have unchanged converts. True transformation is evedent in changed lives. I think we put to much importance on numbers in the Church today.

When I go fishing with a guide I expect to catch fish, based on the ability of the guide. When I go fishing for men I go on the ability of the gude, the Holy Spirit. My first inclination whould be to someone who is not catching would be that this person is not going with the guide, or else he is not fishing. Innovative lures help me catch more fish, but innovative lures will not help non-fishermen. Success comes from the guide putting you in the right place. The power comes from Bible study and prayer not from secular books. I said this before and I say it again. Too many pastors are searching for answers outside the book. AS for me I will continue to read outside material but my main “seeking” will be inside the book and on my knees.

Any institutionalized church, if we will ever get real enough to be honest, will be recognized for what it really is. It is man’s feeble attempt to take control of and manage the Kingdom of God. To even discuss the whole idea of where an institutional church is as relates to “The Box” and “Innovation” is in itself a fruitless endeavor.  The institution does not love God or His people.  The institution has no compassion for the lost and hurting in this world.  The institution does not care about relationships at all.  The institution is not born from above.  The institution is not sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  The institution, in fact, always has and always will, have only one single motivational force behind anything and everything it ever does or allows its members to do. SURVIVAL AND SELF-PERPETUATION!!!! If we think for one minute that we are ever going to have an institutionalized church that is truly controlled by, directed by and anointed by the Lord, we are sadly deceived! It ain’t gunna happen!!!  It would literally be an oximoron (sp?). I know it sounds like I’m condemning the whole organized church thing but that is not at all where I’m coming from. I am and have been for many years an actively involved Pastor in one of the churches you all are calling “Beyond the Box”. The way I see it is that we have to walk out this paradoxical Kingdom of God in the Earth thing making use of what life has given us. The fact is, “MAN” decided to organize and institutionalize something that literally cannot be harnessed or controlled. The Church is a Spiritual Body and everything about it is 100% relationship and other world focused. Jesus said He did nothing but what He saw His Father in Heaven doing. If our goal and work and efforts are anything short of that...well...we might be doing some good stuff...but it isn’t Kingdom stuff and it isn’t God. Personally, I do a whole lot of that kind of activity, piling up wood hay and stubble, in the name of Christianity, the Great Commission and Church life in general, and it makes me sick.  But I can only hope that when I stand before the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ there will be a good supply of gold, silver and precious jewels left at my feet after He torches all that fleshly religious garbage I produced. Love Father and each other to the point of becoming one just like Jesus and the Father are...and we’re there Church. All else is DUNG!!!

Hi… Todd here.

Thanks for all your input.  I love a good discussion.

However, I’m still amazed at the amount of negative comments to a topic that was supposed to help broaden our horizons and make us think a little.  I can take negative comments when they’re constructive (really, I can)… but just about every post to this blog (overall, not just this thread) ends up with someone saying all discussion is meaningless because:

1.  the Bible is the only book we need
2.  Jesus didn’t talk about this directly
3.  it’s sin… let’s call it what it is
4.  I’m right and your wrong.

Quickly, let me make these observations (not only about this post, but any post on this blog) (and I can do that since I’m the operator and grand poopah of the blog here)

1.  The Bible is the Word of God; and is THE MOST IMPORTANT BOOK.  That’s the starting point in my mind.  To say that reading or suggesting or using any other book is not worth our time is just silly in my opinion.  Yet just about every topical post (including this one we’re discussing); someone has to say something like “why are we discussing this… all our answers are in the Bible”.  My answer to this:  probably because the discussion started as a discussion on a particular book or thought.  To be honest, my first thought is if the Bible is the only thing you ever need to read, why are you here reading this? 

2.  Jesus didn’t mention this in the Bible.  You know… why all this talk about boxes?  Show me a scripture that talks about boxes.  OK… you got me.  There aren’t any.  But you’ve missed the point.  Actually read the first post and find out the meaning of what we’re calling boxes.  They do have relevance to what we’re doing in our churches (even if you prefer to think about it in other ways than ‘boxes’.)

3.  It’s sin.  OK… we haven’t heard this on this post yet (thankfully); but particularly on the posts about conflict there are always comments about everything being as easy as calling sin ‘sin’.  Any of us that have been in ministry for very long know that conflict and ministry are much more difficult than that.  Sin is ‘sin’.  (that much is true).  Dealing with the consequences of sin in the body is yet another matter.  And I think in black and white. 

4.  I’m right and you’re wrong.  Why does this bother me when someone says they’re right and I’m wrong?  Obviously, because I’M right and THEY’RE wrong.  But seriously… why are we as pastors and church leaders so quick to judge others who don’t do things exactly as we do?  What one church does to reach the lost may not work in your church.  But that doesn’t mean that they are wrong.

All this from ‘boxes’.  Go figure.

Maybe it’s just early.  Your thoughts?

(and you can feel free to quote scripture if you wish)

Todd

I have absolutely nothing against this book, or any we’ve discussed on these boards. If someone else can help me be more effective for the Gospel, or break me out of outdated ways of viewing church, I love and embrace it.

I think we all have to remember one thing: It’s not about us, our knowledge, or our practical bent as far as ministry goes. If what we’re doing is not effective in winning souls, making disciples, exalting the Lord, and sending out/multiplying ministry, then what we’re doing is wrong.

Personally, I LOVE the fact that “Beyond the box” thinking involves a missionary mindset! As a matter of fact, when I look at the characteristics of “Beyond the box” ministry on the whole, I get excited. There are certain characteristics from all three groups that I think are valid. As always, I say, do whatever is effective. The heart and the fruit are what matters. Right motivation + right procedure + fervent prayer = good fruit.

However this book can help me with procedure and a reminder of Christ’s heart for the lost, I’m okay with it!

Would a person who is thinking beyond the box and living radically for Jesus Christ take time away from that mission to read and comment on this blog? (No offense Todd)

I have to confess, I want to be someone who is beyond the box and be a pastor in a church that is beyond the box.  However currently I am not beyond the box.  Having grown up in the church I fear that I am hopelessly stuck in the box.  I know that my current church is stuck in the box, but as the youth pastor I don’t know how to help the whole church move beyond the box.  My prayer is that God would change me in such a way that I am living beyond the box and that those around me would be influenced to do the same.