I’m guilty.

I can’t pay the fine.

SomeOne else paid it for me.

I trust Him.

I’m not guilty.

I guess trusting him and realizing my need for him because of my admitted guilt doesn’t constitute repentance in some eyes, because I didn’t use the word. (I was deliberately avoiding churchy language.)

You’re right, Todd. Shame on me. Let me go back and make it more complicated if I can.

Lee doesn’t understand what’s going on in our post-modern culture. His verse in 1Cor. gives the effect of the gospel not it’s content. Don’t anyone wonder why so many of these new births are still-born ?
Mike

"You’re right, Todd. Shame on me. Let me go back and make it more complicated if I can.”

Peter… I hope you know I was kidding. 

Todd

Mike, I think the tone of your comments to Leonard was rude, and not befitting someone who apparently understands the “content” of the gospel as well as you purport to.  You certainly have a right to disagree, but around here we try to do it a little more politely.

That being said, I think I agree with Daniel on this one, Leonard.  And maybe, in essence, you don’t disagree with Daniel either.  When one is in a crunch to “boil down” the Gospel to its very essence and core, perhaps exercises like these are helpful.  However, I think that when we try to reduce it, something is lost, and the story is robbed of its power.

Mike,
Mike, please help me understand how you see Paul’s words being the effect of the Gospel rather than the gospel.  I don’t want to argue I just want to see what you’re seeing.  On another note I pastored an emergent church for 8 years. 

Daniel, I too appreciate your thinking.  I am not sure how what you said was any simpler nor do I assume that was your goal.  I have read your thoughts on this before and honestly they are very well put together.  I love NT Wright but do not necessarily hold everything he says tightly.  I also am not sure I think the message was as confusing as you hold to believe.  Just because a message is odd does not by default make it confusing. In fact I think that is a part of the power of the Gospel.  It makes soul sense.  Sort of when I heard it, I knew it was true.  I don’t think I used the word understand in reference to how people receive the Gospel nor do I expect people too understand. 

Let me lay another bit of context with my words.  I say this carefully as I do not take credit for the result.  In being a Christ follower for 40+ years, I have been privileged to share Christ with thousands upon thousand of people.  This has taken place in large arenas through crusades, small venues of a small group of seekers, large group rally’s, one on one meetings, building intentional friendships and such.  I have been privileged to lead several thousand people to Christ.  My thinking comes from my study of the word coupled with the practice of sharing Christ.  I don’t think I am an expert but I do live out what I speak and find that the Holy Spirit is working in the lives of so many people ready (something about fields white with harvest) to enter a friendship with Christ.

It literally breaks my heart to think of people spending their whole life not knowing that God forgives.  It devastates my heart to think someone can live their entire life and not know they are loved by God.  I hurt thinking someone could live their entire life and never find out who made them and why.  To spend 60,70,80 years an never know the joy of living in the community of faith, joining God in his redemptive plan, developing a deep friendship with your creator, breaking free form both the power of sin and its impact is tragic.  To enter into eternity without Christ is even more tragic.  I guess I say this to say, this is not a theological debate for me, it is a personal conversation

Leonard, thanks for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful response.
Clearly, your experience in sharing the gospel with others has shaped your take on the issue. Perhaps I was not clear enough, or more likely, I misunderstood what you were saying: I whole-heartedly agree that the gospel is not supposed to be ‘confusing’ (/muddled/unclear). That is to say, it makes sense, and more profoundly (and this is what I gather you are saying), it ‘clicks’ when the coin drops in the slot. It has (to use fancy words) immediate existential relevance in the lives of many people.
That being said, and I think you’ll agree with this, the gospel is not just that we are forgiven in Christ (or rather it is, but that short statement assumes a meaningful background many people lack).  The story of Creation, which becomes the story of Israel, which becomes the story of Jesus, which then expands to become the story of the Church (including Jews and Gentiles) are irreducible aspects of the gospel (in other words, the ‘solution’ only makes sense in a narrative that clearly underscores the ‘problem(s)’. These are learned, of course, in the fullness of time.
But notice that when Phillip shares (what we can assume to be) the ‘bare bones’ gospel with the Ethiopian eunuch, the eunuch’s response is “is there anything to prevent me from being baptized?"--which, in 1st century context, is necessarily understood as pledging allegiance and membership to the Kingdom movement, the Church.  That is to say, when Phillip preached the gospel, he did it in such a way that a call to conversion/repentance/change was required, and in such a way to frame that need for New Creation within the story of Creation, Israel, and Jesus in such a way that the ‘convert’s first response is to acknowledge the need to be baptized into the new community of God.
I know too many ‘Christians’ who prayed a prayer because of a moment they had, but because of a lack of clarity on the heart of the gospel (that is, the story of God’s providence), their lives weren’t profoundly changed. While I’m positive, based on your post, that these aren’t the kinds of ‘conversions’ you’ve been leading, I wanted to make sure the message we proclaim as a Body has the same effect on its hearers as Phillip’s did on the Ethiopian eunuch.
Am I making sense?
This is way too much talking for a Thursday…
Cheers!
-Daniel-

Does it bother anyone that Jesus never laid out “4 Easy Steps to Salvation”? I’m in agreement that the gospel ought to be clear and straightforward and that you don’t need a religious studies degree to understand it.

I’ve heard my share of preachers who in our attempt to be wholistic make things so complicated and/or boring that no one raised in a multimedia culture will ever connect.

The challenge (IMHO) is not simplicity, rather it is an engaging and interesting presentation. The problem with some of the language being criticised in the original post is not theological but practical. It’s not everyday vernacular. My plumber wouldn’t understand what they were talking about and wouldn’t care. It sounds like something you’d get in a seminary lecture. Gotta find ways to talk about the deep things of God in language people understand.

Simplicity: Panacea or Plague?

That’d be a great title for an article, Leonard. I love what you wrote. Great job!

Mike, I did not feel you were rude but thanks for caring about that.  I would like to have you answer my question about 1 Corinthians 15.  I do think you might have been a bit presumptive about me so your question about the exact plan of salvation feels a bit more like a set up than an actual want to know.  If I am wrong about this I am sorry in advance for misjudging you. 

In terms of the response I ask of people to confess with their mouth Jesus as Lord and and to believe in their heart that God did raise Him from the dead as Paul described in Romans 10.  This is a commitment of faith made to God.  As for the plan it varies based upon circumstances and situations but when I share Christ I will always ask for permission first.  I include the problem between man and God which the bible describes as sin.  I explain God’s solution to the problem, which includes the sinless life, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.  I always include an opportunity to respond to Christs offer of Grace and forgiveness and When the response is affirmative I will with wide open arms welcome them into the community of faith and the family of God.  when someone does not wish to receive the offer of Christ to follow him I usually ask if it would be okay to address this with them again sometime. 

My invitation is not merely to say words but to follow Christ and to enter into a friendship with Christ.  I also try to connect each person to the community of faith that would help them understand a more complete story of God.  Hope that answers your question.

Preach the gospel at all time and if necessary use words.  Saint Francis of Assisi

It is a both and not an either or Faith comes by hearing and hearing by th word of God… We must tell people but we must also live out the life of Jesus as a community.  They will know we are Christians by our love.  Well said Daniel

I liked the article.  I think the author definitely exposes a problem.  Sometimes the gospel that we hear is the god that we pledge our faith to and that can be a problem.  If the gospel I hear is “come to Jesus and you’ll live with plenty of $$” then that’s the god I’ve pledged my allegiance to.  If the gospel I hear is that god wants a be a part of my marriage and direct my life then I may have pledged my allegiance to a god who promises that everything will go “OK” with my marriage and life.  And on and on and on ...

I believe that the Gospel should always include some basic elements and I try to present them each time - even though I get to the invitation through multiple paths and passages (depending on where I am in my message or conversation.)

- We have a problem; no ones lives either for God or in the Spirit of God.  We live selfishly and this in essence makes us God’s enemy.
- That type of life is what the Bible terms “sin” or just plain ol’ missing the mark that God has set
- We need forgiveness for a debt we cannot pay thru works and God provides that through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son Jesus who is God in the flesh
- In order to become reconciled (or made at peace with) God we must admit the problem and accept God’s solution to it ... to believe and trust in God’s view of us and not our own.
- Those who accept God’s offer of His Son’s payment have the opportunity to live a new life, to see life through a new lens, and if truly lived in God’s power will seperate themselves from the world and no longer care about the approval of man.
- In seperation from the world I will ALWAYS explain this as such; we have the opportunity to love differently, offer mercy differently, see outsides our own lives differently, and experience contentment differently than the rest of the world.  All this is available to those who profess Christ as their Savior and all this is promised to those who follow Jesus Christ after their profession.

I believe that last thing is extremely important and attractive to those God is speaking to in our post-modern or post-Christian culture of today because people today want to know how being a follower of Christ is going to change their lives in the “here and now.” I know some people don’t like this “here and now” focus BUT if God is God then following Him should hold the promise of a changed life now too (they seek transformation and we’ve got to tell them what transformation is and what it is not.) In addition, my read on scripture says that how our “here and nows” are impacted by Christ may tell us alot about the genuiness of yesterday’s professions.

Those points most probably are covered somewhere in the message (or conversations) and are NOT routinely or rotely verbalized as to formulize our salvation or experience with God.

There’s my 10 cents.