Unfortunately, Vince, your soundbite comment seems to lend little to this discussion.  Are you suggesting that to have a conversation with a “sinner” is to embrace Sodom?  I seem to recall reading several accounts of Jesus sitting down to a meal with “sinners”, and only the Pharisees (or other religious leaders) having a problem with that.  Seems to me Jesus’ words to the adulteress were quite clear:  I don’t condemn you, but don’t do it anymore. 

Maybe - just maybe - by the deadly (to Jesus) grace of God, we could sit down to a meal with people who - IMO - have it wrong theologically, and extend to them the same manner of grace that Jesus extended.  Somehow that doesn’t seem to “embracing Sodom” or trying mix Sodom and the gospel.  Somehow it seems to me that is pretty much what the gospel is all about.

Wendi,
It was nice to meet you and your husband face to face, thanks for saying hello at THRIVE. 

I think that much of what we see with fundamentalists is a reaction to the shift in cultural mores.  In my life time abortion has become legal, homosexuality has become legal, (still not in some places) in a world of free sex and “love”.  Fundamentalists still believe we live in a Christian nation and are fighting to regain that nation; they see these things as a matter of preservation.  Their tools are those of a person/organization who sees this as a Christina nation whose mentality is and has been that our enemies are physical not spiritual.  This mentality makes people the enemy and I begin to wrestle with flesh and blood. 

Truth is we live in a post Christian nation and have for over 40 years.  As such most Christians are using outdated tools and tactics for this fight. 

Today we see sky high divorce rates, sky high numbers of people violently and sexually assaulted, high numbers of kids who have been molested.  Since the president (Clinton) let everyone know the oral sex was not really sex we see huge numbers of teens experimenting with this form of sex.  STD’s are overwhelmingly rampant and being transmitted in more common circles than previously.  (no longer just in promiscuity)

Add to this an absolutely relentless campaign in the media against anything Christian, labeling it fundamental or evangelical in a negative way we can see why people do not know how to react.  I meet people everyday who are trapped in some form of sinfulness, the problem is that I am a bigot or mean spirited or just a crazy fundamentalist if I say something.  People love darkness over light because their deeds are evil.  I know this has been true of me more than once and is very true of our post Christian culture.

Living in a post Christian era requires different tools than we evangelicals have used in the past.  Jay Bakker, on the surface seems to think changing tools means changing theology.  He is right in that we need not exclude people but seems to have gone a bit too far.  While we must be inclusive we cannot include in such a way as to give someone love but fail to give them Christ and his transforming power.  To do so would gyp people. 

Brennan Manning said, Jesus loves me as I am not as I should be.  I agree and a love like this transforms me into what I was meant to be.  My 2 cents

Randy,
You may think my sound bite adds little to the conversation. I don’t think is does when someone has the opportunity to learn the truth. Homosexuality is sin.
Talking and ministering to the homosexual to get them delivered of that spirit is great.
But, setting down to dialog for the purpose of finding common ground will lead to compromise.
There is no dialoging to find common ground.
OK....Rev. Joel Osteen and Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas...This is your chance to take a stand.
Will anyone with a nationial voice take a stand?
It may hurt finanically and in the national press to the big ministry names, but someone needs to stand for the truth.
How many people stand for the truth?
Jay Bakker is wrong and leading people to hell. This may not “sound” loving, but the truth is love.

Wendi, there was a time in this country when people could list the ten commandments, now most church people cannot.  There was a time when people knew the golden rule, now most do not.  there was a time when people though well of Christianity, now most do not.  There was a time when evangelism was as simple as sharing what people already had a base knowledge of, then inviting them to come to know Christ.  There was a time when culture looked at divorce, premarital sex, abortion, immodesty, drunkenness and several other issues as morally wrong and unacceptable.  The gap between the churches values and the Unchurched values were not extremely wide and the assumption was that the church as right.  The values of a Judeo/Christian ethic saturated much of this country. 

Today, that is not the case.  To be a Christian today is to be mocked in the media, thought poorly of by others (till proven wrong by acts of kindness and discourse). 

Evangelism was like picking ripe fruit off the ground and required little effort.  Over the years the fruit has gotten higher in the branches.  Today you have to plant a tree and do soil treatments.  That has much to do with the acceptability of Christian values within this culture.  So while I claim not special place for America as Christian, I use the term to describe our moral climate then and now.  The ethics of our nation’s people are sad as are the ethics of many within the church.  This is post Christian in my book. 

As for my way or highway approach.  How does one stand against what they believe to be wrong, destructive to humanity and harmful to individuals?  All people who have leadership take this stand at one point in time or another.  You and I do as parents, we do in our marriages at times, we do in our jobs as bosses. 

As an employee cannot tell his employer, I know we make shoes but at my station we make pie tins.  The employer says, no, it is my way or the highway.  A husband cannot say to his wife, I want you and those twins down the street and the lady at my office and… you ge the point.  It should be my way or the highway there.  A teen cannot say, I am taking your car and drinking and driving dad.  No it should be my way or the high way.  Jesus said, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.  My way or the high way.

The climate of our culture does not allow this stand and vilifies all who take it.  Sadly many who take it do so without grace.  When we excuse the sin, find ways to get around the sin, find obscurities in biblical languages to justify sin, take sinfulness as a cultural issue and not a biblical issue and draw lines that are constantly moving we do nothing for the cause of Christ or for people. 

We must tackle this issue, not with screaming or tired rhetoric but with grace, with truth, and with much prayer.  Not with a closed eye, faulty logic (they are such good people, it can’t be wrong) will this ever be settled.

Peter’s right Leonard. Who’s your ‘we’? Who were the ‘people’ who had ‘Judeo-Christian’ morals? Who were the ‘people’ who could recite the Ten Commandments?
Were they the Africans suffering under the oppression white Europeans crushed them with for the sake of economic expediency? No of course not--because slaves weren’t people at all!! And so your ‘people’ isn’t the people at all, but rather a small privileged and, by their behavior, thoroughly unChristian minority.
Yes, some things were nice. Yes, some things are awful. Let’s not pretend like either of those are false.

Peace,
-Daniel-

Leonard,

I hear what you’re saying, but…

So in the last 50 years has the divorce rate climbed? 
Yes, I grant you it has.

Has divorce become more or less acceptable?
Yes, but dysfunctional marriages and families might be on the decline, too. So might spousal abuse.

In the last 50 years has teen pregnancy rate climbed?
Hard to say, since we used to hide it, and we don’t anymore. As we used to hide abortion, and don’t anymore.

Is unwed mothering more or less acceptable?
If more “acceptable”, perhaps it would be an antidote to abortion in many instances.

Has pornography increased?
No, it’s just more visible I suspect. 

Is it more acceptable?
I don’t think so. The people who used to accept it are just more out in the open (again). (And some might say that the early days of photography in the 19th century were the “golden age” of pornography.

Has crime increased?
per capita? Not sure. We’ve had more crime-ridden times than this in the 19th century.

Has greed increased?
I think it’s always been there in the same measure, myself.

We could argue these points all day, and all we’d come up with is something that you and I both probably agree with, that man is fallen, has been for some time, and it manifests itself in every generation, albeit differently. To argue that we are on a moral decline “from a Christian Nation” as I’ve heard many times is still, to me, patently absurd. In the 19th century we considered Native Americans and African Americans not really human (as a society). Today we consider unborn babies not really human. We have just changed who we’re sinning against.

Come on Peter, you seem to be arguing to make a point rather that dealing with the facts.  Pornography makes more money than the NFL, NBA and MLB combined in this country.  The fact it is available to every home that has a computer, that huge numbers of men are addicted to it, that millions of women are not looking at it, that some stars are now household names… It’s accessibility and visibility is in direct correlation to a loosening of cultural mores.  I have worked with teens and families for over 25 years and I have personally seen a rise in Teen pregnancy and students who parents were never married.  You make not connection to the visibility and rise in several of these areas in the last 50 years to a shifting of cultural mores?  How can that be? 

We are not arguing the rightness or wrongness of slavery or what happened to the Native America.  A quick look in history will tell you this treatment of people is rampant and it will also tell you that very often what curbed that treatment was real Christianity.  Sure religion has had its share of corruption and abuse but that is beside the point that in my very own life time we are loosening the mores that once kept certain sins in check.  What is on my television was unspeakable 50 years ago, even 35 years ago.  What we view as honest has changed, what we view as ethical has changed, and the lessening of these mores had allowed an increase of activity in many realms.  It has lessened the restraint too.  Teens today are more likely to have sex than when I was in high school 30 years ago.  Teens today are more likely to both abort and keep a baby than when I was in high school 30 years ago.  Why?  The mores have loosened.  People walk away fomr marriages much more easily than in the past, I deal with marriages that end all the time for no reason other than they are tired of being married.  Why?  The mores have loosened. 

You are communicating with denial to make a point I am not sure we even disagree upon.
You honestly do not see any moral decline in this country in the last 50 years?

Who is arguing that point here Peter?  Who thinks that as you say “Many Christians seem to think it was more Christian to believe that African-Americans and Native Americans were not human than it is now to believe that unborn children and unclothed women in photographs and videos are not human.”

I would like to believe that if I were alive in the days of slavery I would use biblical and political methods to abolish slavery.  I would like to believe that if I were alive in the days when Native Americans were being mistreated and wrongs so severely I would have used biblical and political and every other means necessary to stop the harm.  I cannot nor can you go back 200 years and change what happened to Native Americans or Africans.  No one here is claiming that this was good or made us moral. 

Sociology tells us that boundaries help hold people in check in their behaviors.  Our country used to have boundaries that it no longer possesses.  These are its mores.  Social and legal boundaries have been eradicated, thus allowing options and activities that for many would not take place.  I am not arguing some philosophical ideology of depravity; I am talking about behavior and boundaries. 

Here is what I know as a pastor, a father, a leader and a human being.  The more acceptable lying becomes in our culture the more easily people do it.  The more acceptable and normative pornography becomes in our culture, the more people see it and as I here so very often… What’s the big deal, it is just a picture?  The more accessible and easily obtained divorce is in our culture the more easily it will be attained.  The losing of the boundaries no longer takes into account the pain kids have, the repercussions divorce has upon our economy, parenting, social responsibility… Etc.  The number 1 cause of nearly every ill we face in the family is Fatherless ness.  Has this increased over the past 50 years?  Absolutely!  Why?  Because the mores that help this back are gone and depravity is now less in check than ever. 

I am not getting your point and I certainly don’t think my point is coming across.  I am not arguing for a more moral heart 200 years ago, I am saying that there are certain mores that have been remove, giving license to the depraved heart of people.

Likewise Peter, I have enjoyed the dialog.  I do not mean to imply what those words mean to so many. I also do not excuse the sins of many who claim Christ but oppress others. I mean we live in a country whose mores were Christian in origin and now those mores are gone or rapidly disintegrating.  I do know that many like Dobson do believe we are a Christian nation and as such the point I was trying to make before we bunny trailed is that they are playing with a different set of rules.  It is not an ungodly goal as many sincerely seek the redemption of people, but when the view is we lost something and want it back, you use different tools than when the view is we need to reach people. 

Europe has committed far more atrocities and been party to longer periods of harm than America ever has but feels no shame not is it decried throughout the world.  Why?  A quick study of our own history and you will see the French, British, Spain did great harm to the native American as well.  I do not say this to excuse our nation, just to bring a more balanced picture than we are given in the media and in school. 

Africa has harmed its own people far more than America ever did by virtue of a longer existence and internal tribal warfare.  It was Africans killing Africans in Somalia, throughout the Congo, Nigeria and many other places.  There is no outcry against Africans there.  Why?  China oppresses its people more than almost any other nation in the world along with North Korea.  Why no outcry?  No nation has sacrificed more for the abolition of slavery than this country.  No country has sent more money throughout the world, food throughout the world and any student of WW1 and WW2 could easily see that this country literally saved the world from Nazi Germany, Japanese imperialism and tyranny. 

I do not write this with a blind eye to my countries sins.  But one reason I think we are so hard on this country but wink at the sins of others is a heritage of Christian values and the expectations this kind of heritage has upon others.

Boy, you guys had a lively discussion yesterday.  I had a packed day and couldn’t chime in.  I won’t add much opinion here, except to offer one comment and one example.

Peter’s comments reflect my views on this.  I’ll add that (IMO) the idea of a “Christian nation” is dangerous because it gets us off mission.  We begin to think that if the 10 Commandments is on the walls of our public places, if we get to pray “in Jesus name” on the public address system at the local HS football game, if we can pass enough laws to enforce Christian behavior onto non-Christian citizens . . . then somehow we’ve accomplished.  When we lament about how, in the old days, America was so much more “Christian” because [we wrongly conclude] we behaved better.  Even if this were true (and I completely agree with Peter – it is not true), citizens acting morally does not make America a “Christian nation.” Individuals and faith communities follow Jesus, not governments. 

Yesterday I was at our City Hall for a National Day of Prayer gathering.  I’ve attended this completely Christian event for many years.  Local pastors and Christian civic leaders take turns praying for God to bless our city and remove the depravity.  This year’s event was quite a spectacle.  Members of the “Interfaith Alliance” showed up carrying signs that read “one nation . . . many faiths.” As the festivities began, our Christian mayor at the mic, welcomed the others and [being politically correct], invited leaders from other faiths to the front and even offered the mic.  A Muslim cleric accepted and proceeded to offer a prayer to Allah.  The Christians were outraged.  The pastor in charge grabbed the mic to prevent any other non-Christians from offering prayers.  Each of the subsequent “pray-ers” boldly and blatantly prayed Christian prayers.  I’ve never heard so many “in Jesus name” statements from the mouths of public officials and pastors.  Several times we were instructed to gather into groups and pray.  Prayer eavesdropping (I confess), I heard several prayers for blessing on people of “every faith, any sexual orientation.”

I was mortified and embarrassed at our “Christian behavior.” I was ashamed to hear Jesus name being used to make an “in your face” point. The interfaith signs are right.  America IS one nation of many faiths.  Our constitution which guarantees religious freedom insists on religious pluralism.  Yesterday was the “national” not the “Christian” day of prayer.  These folks should have been welcomed on the City Hall steps.  America does not belong to the Christians, and taking America back for God was never the mission Jesus gave us.

I may have hijacked this thread a bit.  My point is related to some of the comments that SoulForce doesn’t really want discussion but rather wanting to make people change their minds.  American evangelicals have been doing this same thing for years in the public and political venue, trying to force Christian morals onto non-Christian people making Christian laws.  Furthermore, Bakker and SoulForce are indicating that they want dialogue.  Like many who have posted here, I question how genuine the desire is for real dialogue.  But what I was part of yesterday at the National Day of Prayer event also shuts down dialogue.  Claiming Jesus as an “in your face” way of telling those of other faiths or who hold different moral values that they have it all wrong is no way to invite them into a dialogue. 

Wendi

Scott:

“What happened to Jay and Joel?”

Last time I checked, Mother’s Day is this coming Sunday.  Time shall tell.  =)

--
CS