I admit - I am a big Mark Driscoll fan - primarily because he seems to be the first guy who can marry extensive expository, systematic ministry with cultural and creative relevance.  Most guys seem to fall on one side of the fence - he manages to strattle it pretty well.

As for John - this seems to be the latest and greatest of his personal attacks against someone else on “our team.” Seriously, if he would spend half as much time refuting the “gods of the world” as he does picking out his self-described fallacies of other Christian ministers, perhaps he could make some significant advances in our mission to evangelize the world.

It’s almost like the captain of the ship needs to point to the front of the ship and say, “the enemy is out there gentlemen.”

As for the issue at hand - I don’t think Jesus was called a glutton and a drunkard for nothing.  Obviously Jesus didn’t sin, but he sure did rub shoulders with a lot of sinners.  I wonder if John M. makes it a regular practice of meeting with people who are nothing like him in an effort to “become all things to all people.....to win some?”
Maybe John needs a hug or something.

I have issues with both Driscoll and MacArthur – different issues.

But JM has (IMO) prostituted the platform God has given him far more that a little vulgarity from someone like MD ever could.  Driscoll uses his platform, even if I disagree with his methods, to reach people far from God.  MacArthur uses his stir up people who are already “found,” incites divisive behavior within the local churches of his loyal followers.  Instead of helping his listeners and readers become better equipped to be a kingdom influence, he encourages them to put their pastors under his microscope (if I had a dime for every time JM writes or speaks to his “non-clergy” audience about bad preachers or pastors, I’d be rich.) If he (the pastor) fails the MacArthur test, his loyal fans, now fully equipped with MacArthur weapons of warfare, begin firing.  Heaven forbid they should just decide their church isn’t a good fit anymore and leave.  No . . . like their hero JM, they are compelled to decry the spiritual ills of their leaders from every hilltop within their church.  Their mission?  Not to go and make disciples of all nations, but to “bring down” those JM has helped them identify as heretics within their church.

I’m not a prophet, but my bet is that when these guys stand before the master and have to account for how well they have stewarded the riches which had been entrusted to them, one will hear “well done good and faithful servant” and the other might even hear “ you wicked and lazy #?$%&? . . .”

Wendi

I was dissapointed as I tracked back through MaCs article to the blogs he ‘recommended’ it thought there were going to be some really bad words...but potty, poop, freaky were about they only words i could pick up one...there was the one story that Mark told about his kid wanting to know if Jesus had a ‘boy part’...It wasn’t all that crazy to me. (I listened to the one on Phil Johnsons Blog)

Johnny Mac has his good and bad...The older he gets the more it does seem that he feels he is the security guard of Orthodox Christianity.

Leonard, I love your definition of comfortable = accepted by God cared for by his people.

So many of the watchdogs, among whom JM is chief, claim that we are watering down the gospel of minimizing sin in order to help people feel comfortable. 

But I’m guessing that your brother and father were not “unbelievers” all those years they felt uncomfortable.  But look at the cost of keeping things uncomfortable.  Many people chuck the church forever, and years without anyone finding Jesus. 

So glad that you’ve rewritten the church story of your family of origin.

Wendi

hey,

good stuff…

mark needs to stop swearing and be a little more holy and set a part from the world…

and john needs to get w/ the times, loss the tie and try to engage the culture in real way…

That Guy Over There

MacArthur used his considerable influence to publically castigate a good friend of mine several years ago. My friend has never completely recovered and must still answer to MacArthur’s baseless charges on an almost daily basis. Because of my close association with this friend I also have to spend a great deal of time refuting MacArthur’s claims. If he caused as much damage to the Kingdom of Darkness as he does to the Kingdom of Light MacArthur would be an incredible asset to the church; as it is he’s just a pain in the…

Kent,

I’m assuming you already have a ticket.  It will be a match made in heaven.  I can’t wait till were all together there!!!!!!!!!!!

The first thing that comes to mind is the use of the word “Grunge”...1990 called, they want their word back.  “Grunge” has been dead since about 1997 so using the term to discuss someone’s ministry in terms of “cultural relevance” shows that you’re about a decade behind what’s happening out there.  I find that we are in a huge battle between Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy.  It saddens me that someone like John Macarthur who has his orthodoxy so in-line in so many ways frowns and calls to question the Orthopraxy of another brother in Christ.  This is so sad...truly, deeply sad.  I find it interesting that over the years while I’ve listened to John Macarthur’s sermons on “Grace to You” I’ve really enjoyed his class and grasp of the Word, but as I’ve jumped onto the Christian “blogosphere” to see what’s happening in ministry around the world, there seems to be such a movement to “living Christ” day to day and within the culture and the world...becoming shining lights and yet it seems that in some circles, everything is about “being right” instead of about “living your faith”.  I just don’t see this as what Christ would be applauding.  Yes, truth and the gospel are vitally important, but WHAT WE DO WITH IT are also vitally important.  If we spend our time telling others why they are wrong, we’ve missed half (at least) the message and are truly only raising up our own self-righteousness.

I keep turning back to the Gospels.  Jesus challenged the Pharisees who were so sure of their “rightness” and yet wouldn’t cross the street to help someone in need.  I have to wonder if we are not seeing the same thing here...people who spend their entire sermon life outlining right and wrong and yet who never seem to challenge their listeners to reach out to people where they are at with the love of God.

We seem to get the “Great Commission” right and forget “The Great Commandment”.

It is dissapointing when Christian leaders, such as John MacArthur, spend so much time attacking a fellow brother in Christ.

There’s so much to say!!!  I’m a new believer.  By God’s grace, His word showed how I am a sinner and have nothing to offer Him.  I was saved through faith in Christ’s work on the cross.  He died for my sins, the perfect Son of God the Father!!!  I LOVE GOD BECAUSE HE LOVED ME FIRST!

CAN WE TAKE THIS back to scripture please??!!!  GOD has left us HIS WORD for all situations!  ALL!!!  I first have to admit that I am somewhat ghetto, but I will try not to be bias.  by God’s grace, MY LOVE FOR HIM bids me to obey in what HE SAYS… Do you have that love FOR GOD and FROM GOD???  IF you do, you will find that you are a temple of the Holy Spirit, who teaches you God’s word.  His word says to LET NOT any unclean thing proceed from our mouths.  I AM guilty of that.  In my pride, I was motivated in saying things in a shocking manner, for the sake of shocking people as I deliver the gospel to them.  It was in my ignorance of the Word of God, for TITUS 2:7-8 says: in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, DIGNIFIED, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.

You know this issue is bigger than this one article.  It is bigger than a few controversial sermons.  If you want to know more, find the video called “Does the Truth matter anymore” on http://www.crosstv.com (I think it’s here).  It talks about how Great Britain’s evangelical churches already went through what we are going through right now in our age, here in America.  The Godly servant preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon preached against worldly thinking polluting faithful biblical preaching.  So Man-Centered Ideas polluted God-Centered Biblical preaching in Spurgeon’s time.  It was Satan’s attack on the church then… through the ages, it obliterated Britain’s churches.  Now, Britain has dumped any true preaching of the Pure Word of God… entertaining church goers is the new trend, to a point that Scripture teaching is twisted so that it fits our culture, imagine it to fit the culture of Soddom and Gommorah!!!! (for our case, it is dangerously subtle!!!!) Biblical Truths are left out because they are hard for worldly ears to hear.  Now most of the churches in Britain are DEAD, EMPTY, for ENTERTAINMENT was their goal, so Worldly-Entertaining-Preaching GOT OLD!!!! and people ABANDONED going to church… BE WARNED, GOD’S WORD IS ETERNAL, IT NEVER GETS OLD!!!!!  BE WARNED true children of God!  Pray for the worldly pastors to turn away from that so that they preach it according to Titus 2:7-8… ALSO according to 2Timothy4:1-3 “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom; preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction;For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

I pray Lord that to those who read these verses for the first time will turn their hearts towards you, in a search for knowing YOU as most important above squabbles in defense of worldly polluted preaching.  Father I pray that YOUR TRUE CHILDREN will be convicted by Your Word through the work of the Holy Spirit!  Let THOSE who have Hardened Hearts towards Your FAITHFUL preachers, be turned away from that hardness… Lord I pray that you make them hunger for your Word, to teach them discernment so that they are able to think clearly above emotional feelings that can cloud their vision.  I pray this Father in the name of your Son, the great Christ, my Lord and Savior Jesus!  Amen!

This rebuke is in love for the true church… is in love for God’s Will… is in living for God’s Glory.  Father show my heart any unfaithfulness of thought in my writing above.  I also pray that in your strength alone and in the wisdom of your Word alone - my heart… my mind… your church, your true children who read this receive the blessing of discernment from you through the work of the Holy Spirit.  I pray this in the name of my great Savior Jesus Christ.  Amen!

Let us do all things in Christ, Let us praise His name above all things, Let us live for the Glory of God!

mlouie
unworthily redeemed sinner in Christ, by grace through faith alone in the Son!

MaCarther just wearies me.

I’m not a great fan of Driscoll , but I wish Mc would just get on with the business of ministry and let others be.  Why does he think we need a great refuter to take on these supposed issues?

Let me simplify what I have been reading from most of you.

That nasty, old John McAuthur, he is such a basher of dear old Mark D.
Just who does he think he is? Who made him part of the Christian police?
That “self-rightous” thug. He is attacking one of our own. Where does he get the right?

YOU KNOW WHERE HE GOT THE RIGHT? From the same place some of you got
your right to bash him with words like:

#1. JM...has prostituded the platform God has given him.”
#2. JM is making “...personal attacks....”
#3. McAuthur...incites divisive behavior....”

“OH, BUT MY BASHING IS DIFFERENT, FISHON. YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND. WE ARE JUST PROTECTING MARK AND POINTING OUT JM’S SIN. YOU SEE, FISHON, JM HAS A PUBLIC FORUM IN WHICH HE ATTACKS, GOOD OLD MARK. WE ARE JUST COMING TO THE AID OF MARK.”

WRONG! You are doing the same as you claim JM to be doing. Seems like I read once about “taking the log our of your own eye.”

McAuthur bashes Mark, you bash McAuthur. Yep, sounds a lot like Jesus.
fishon

Fishon and Dan – I think you are missing some significant differences between Mac and Mark, and between their actions about which we are commenting and our actions in commenting about them.

First Dan – I don’t think your comparison with Paul’s admonishment to Timothy works.  First, Paul didn’t say “don’t be like so-and-so who is irreverent and full of silly myths.” He cautioned Timothy and then trusted him to evaluate people and their influence in his life and ministry.  In fact, I can’t think of a place in the NT where the writer blasts a particular Christ follower. 

You see Dan, our problem (at least mine) isn’t with Mac’s admonishment to be careful how we talk, it is with his insistence in picking out a brother to use as an example of how “not” to be.  I can see no reason, nor any biblical justification for using his influence in this manner.

And Fishon – I’m certainly not coming to the aid of poor Mark Driscoll.  I have my beefs with him too, and have expressed it here (where BTW, we’ve been invited to express our opinions about the things Todd posts).  We are not even close to doing the same thing here as Mac has done in this article and in hundreds of other things he’s written and spoken publicly. 

Mac’s primary audience is made up of every-day Christians who read his books and articles and listen to him on his radio show.  Through this platform, instead of helping them learn how to make decisions about influencers, he tells them who they should and should not read and listen to.  Then, he LITERALLY asks . . . no implores them to examine their own pastor.
• Does he ever quote someone like RW, BH, Schuller, or any of the many people he’s decided are bad (and you are in big trouble if your pastor has anything to do with PDL),
• Does he ever use the word “seeker”
• Does he “disrespect” the pulpit (and the Lord) by dressing casual while preaching (like wearing a Hawaiian shirt)
• Does he ever . . . .
And with every thing he warns people about, he names people out there who are doing their ministry is this heinous manner.  He warns, “watch out that your pastor doesn’t turn into one of THEM.”

Fishion, in regard to the division he creates in local churches, I know about what I speak.  In a previous church, after our pastor’s departure (moral failure) created a leadership void, a very zealous group of MacArthurites used this window of opportunity to save the church from those on staff who were taking us down the slippery seeker slope.  MacArthur quotes were more prevalent on the e-mails flying around the church than were bible quotes.  CD’s of MacArthur messages were everywhere.  Every statement we “seeker staff members” said was twisted, taken out of context while being sent around for public consumption and evaluation.  “Did you notice pastor so-and-so quoted what’s-his-name, and here is what John MacArthur says about that guy.” I was afraid to say or write anything.

And sadly they succeed (though it was a bit more complicated, but not much more).  Four of us lost our jobs.  I was the newest, but one was a 23 year veteran who had, in their opinion, turned into a “seeker pastor.”

Mac is causing terrible trouble in local churches.  It is right for us to warn people about his divisive behavior, for the sake of our churches.  Driscoll’s behavior, no matter how vulgar and inappropriate it might be, does not have the power to divide local congregations and turn people against their own leaders.  Mac’s behavior and use of his influence does.  Which is why I stand by my statement that it is a prostitution of his God-given platform.

Wendi