I like his humility. He admits to his lacking, but then gives his perspective. It also sounded like someone speaking out of love for the church and not simple to judge the wrongs they perceive are being done.

Some might argue that the wage of sin is death.  Not ‘hell’.  Some might also argue that ‘hell’ is a post-biblical construct (which fuses both the Greek ‘Hades’, which is simply death, and references to the valley of Hinnom--Gehenna--which is a metaphor for total destruction), and that God’s wrath is always (by OT and NT prophets) conceived historically.  God’s wrath was poured out on Israel, and Jesus was a ransom for many.  The story has moved on.
The point now is not to scare people with empty threats of a metaphysical post-mortem torture-chamber, but rather to point out that the wage of sin (at personal and corporate levels) is still death, and that God is remaking the world, and invites us to repent and join him.
My two cents.
-Daniel-

Kirk says “If you and I fail to teach the whole counsel of God,” and I totally understand his passion and devotion, but the whole counsel of God includes ministering to felt needs and being nice to people.

And it also includes presentations of the Gospel that are not necessarily delivered in the exact words Kirk has decided it needs to be.

just another .02

I agree with the fact that we have a calling to share the gospel with those who don’t have a relationship with Jesus, but there are factors that come into play.  Living in Oklahoma (Bible Belt), a very large percentage of the population knows of the gospel, and have been told of their sins in church as well as the street corner and elsewhere.  They have been told so much, that they can probably share the Romans road, FAITH outline, EE, etc. back to the church folk.  The problem is that they grow bitter and resistant when they are continually approached and notified of their sin (just us judging them from their perspective).  The point I’m making is although some run to Christ upon the realization of their sin, others must experience true love and life transparency from sincere everyday seeking believers.  Kindness leads to repentance.  There are lots of ministries that use scare tactics to get people to “pray the prayer”, but I would love to know the stats on those folks, what percentage goes on to be dedicated followers of Jesus.  Those who accept Christ through relationships have an earthly example. Hopefully the believer(s) loving on them have shown them what following Jesus really means.

Mark,
I would say it is not “either/ or” but “both/and.” Jesus did come to give us life and life more abundantly.  He came so we could know forgiveness here and now, freedom from sin here and now, purpose and meaning here and now, healthy relationships here and now a well as an eternity with Him.  If this were not true IMO the bible would be silent on so many life issues, the law would be silent on life issues too.

The problem with focusing on post-mortem hellfire as that from which Jesus saves us is that we miss the pre-mortem hellfires people face every day.  Jesus saves us from our sins.  Our sins are in the here and now and affect us in the here and now.  The wage of sin is death.  The wage of pornography is divorce, abortion and heartbreak.  The wage of greed is poverty and crime.  The wage of pride is scandal and backbiting.  Jesus saves us from all of these.
By reducing God’s salvific work to ‘saving souls from hell’, we drastically short-change ourselves.  I would suggest that the more biblical paradigm is not to make Jesus ‘my’ or ‘your’ Lord and Savior, but rather to proclaim that Jesus is Lord (whether we choose to acknowledge him or not) and Savior, and that he demands everyone’s allegiance (though in the short run, his purposes are carried forward by the Church). 
So yes, we do want people to ‘say the prayer’ (or rather, to be publically baptized), but the prayer isn’t salvific.  God’s Spirit is salvific, and God’s Spirit flows freely when the individual will is brought into willing submission under Christ’s Lordship. 
Long story boring, the goal is to turn people from death to life.  Kirk’s approach doesn’t seem to tell them what they’re turning to.  What is life?  What is God’s Reign?  What is the Kingdom?  What does it mean to pledge allegiance to the cross?  Am I making sense?
I’m descending into incoherence, so I should probably stop.  I hope this was helpful to someone.
Cheers,
-Daniel-

There is a message that honors God which God will bless and through it the Holy Spirit will regenerate the heart of man or woman - to expect a blessing to fall on man when man is in defiant opposition to proclaiming the Truth, as KC outlined very humbly and respectfully, is to expect the unexpectable. All the man-centered methods that are proclaimed as God-honoring and God-blessed by the numbers flocking to them ignore that it is the wide gate and broad way that lead to destruction. Could God bring someone to salvation through a faulty gospel presentation? One might think so, but consider what we are told to do to those who preach a gospel different than that which was given by Paul - we are told to consider them accursed. Have any opponents to this message ever read a non-Message by Eugene Peterson version of Galatians 1? It decries any type of man-centered nature to a gospel and implores the Galatians to be ever vigilant to remain faithful to the message Paul delivered to them and that if he or an angel from heaven were to come and change it, which the Wonderful Plan nonsense does, well they are to be accursed. Not too much room in there to debate his thoughts on the subject, really.

In Mercy and Grace…

Daniel, I appreciate your understanding of your belief and the way you express it.  Thanks!  I would not go as far as you in some thoughts in regards to the statement, “I would suggest that the more biblical paradigm is not to make Jesus ‘my’ or ‘your’ Lord and Savior, but rather to proclaim that Jesus is Lord (whether we choose to acknowledge him or not) and Savior, and that he demands everyone’s allegiance (though in the short run, his purposes are carried forward by the Church).”

If I misunderstand your thinking please forgive me, but the personal nature of our friendship with Christ cannot be overlooked in scripture.  For example, “what must I do to be saved… is a question that is asked by people.  Love the Lord YOUR God is a very personal was of describing the greatest commandment ever.  Peter’s response to Jesus in John 6 when he asked if they would leave… “Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.  We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."” This too indicates a very personal nature to salvation.  IMO is is very biblical to make Jesus my Lord and savior.  It is true eventually every knew will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord but it is also true that right now, they don’t.  The Lordship of Christ from a positional perspective was never in doubt since before the foundations of the world the lamb was slain.  From a practice perspective the Lordship of Christ is not close to being practiced by over 4 billion people. 

I agree it is not the prayer that is saves, but the surrender of the will.  But the prayer for millions upon millions is the entry.  Sort of like the speaking of vows do not make your marriage great, but married people love being married when the vows are kept. 

IMO on reason we get our panties in such a wad about the gospel message has to do with our understanding of making disciples.  We think getting people to say a prayer is making a disciple but in reality making a disciple is a much longer process.  Saying a prayer in my mind is about recruiting disciples.  The reality is that in many countries of the world, (I have been there) the understanding of this is more clear because of the cost of starting the journey.  TAFN

I’d like to help Kirk, but “first there’s this skit that our wacky drama team put together” and “then I have a video I want to show you.”

Then there’s that whole clanging cymbal thing in 1 Corinthians where a sense that we love someone matters more than anything we say, even if it is truth.

I think that allowing someone to stand on the tracks while a train is bearing down on them isn’t very loving.  Certainly you don’t say something abusive or insulting to them, but a decent human being at the very least least calls out, “Hey you!  There’s a train coming!  You need to get off those tracks!”

Peter said: “He was loving and sensitive to the culture he spoke to.” Speaking of Paul, really? Sensitive to the culture? I think we ought to define what we mean by “sensitive” because some might think that he didn’t preach an offensive message to them if you say that he was “sensitive” to their culture. The fact that he knew much of the beliefs of the groups he preached to in no way should be interpreted as he was not offensive in his message, I mean come on Peter the gospel message is in itself a wholly offensive message if it is accurately presented to the natural man, any other assumption or presumption is to describe what isn’t and say that it is. There are many who say they haven’t changed the message when they completely have. They no longer talk any about repentance when it says in 2 Peter 3:9 that God is not willing than any (of the elect mind you) should perish but that all would come to repentance - yet many pastors don’t deem it necessary to elaborate on what exactly repentance is. So long as people are sorry that they’ve sinned and recognize they are sinners, this is enough, NO IT IS NOT! Worldly sorrow leads to death whereas godly sorrow leads to what? Repentance, not to be repented of (2 Cor 7:8-11). Paul caused such a great sorrow among the Corinthian church that they saw how they had offended God, (which is what an unregenerate man, woman or child consistently does), and because of that they experienced godly sorrow which brought repentance and salvation to them in which Paul was then joyful.

But Peter the current trend in American churches, claiming evangelical leanings, is to so water down the message of the gospel that even the sinful unregenerate adulterer or thief would not feel convicted under what passes for “preaching” or “evangelizing” today.

As to your question to Melody, Peter, - that is to assume the unassumable - no one knows on whom God will bestow the gift of faith, (Eph 2:8) that is why the argument that a Calvinist is not an evangelism minded soul when the truth is quite the opposite and church history bears that out. C.H. Spurgeon was 100% Calvinist and it is highly unlikely that there is living now a more committed evangelist than he was - the originator of the mega-church (From the Spurgeon Archive: The congregation quickly outgrew their building, moved to Exeter Hall, then to Surrey Music Hall. In these venues Spurgeon frequently preached to audiences numbering more than 10,000—all in the days before electronic amplification.)
Have you ever read the sermons Charles Spurgeon preached? Remarkably true to God’s word and God blessed his efforts tremendously in a time when even Charles was seeing a great falling away from the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (See the Down-Grade Controversy http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/dwngrd.htm)

And we have many “leaders”, teaching many other “leaders” that they must modify their services and yes their messages (don’t make it too intense or too long as you’ll scare away the “seeker") to meet the culture where they are at and not drive many away?  What god is that? Whom one would think could not penetrate the heart of the “cultural addict” and conform them to the image of His Son as He has promised to those who come to Him under His terms, by His grace and the Father’s call? Jesus asked “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46)

Kirk is to be commended for his message and leaders should take note to what he has said because they are to be judged not only for their own life but the lives of those who sat under their teaching they will also be held to account for, to what degree I am not sure but that is for God to know and us to understand in glory . How well they taught will be examined by God Almighty, a fact that causes me to tremble at the thought and consider with great reservation before I would enter a pulpit and deliver a message to the Children of God. Church leaders would do well to observe what is revealed about what God will bless in Is. 66:2 which simply says the following:

“For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the LORD
“But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

One important question: The beginning of wisdom and also the beginning of knowledge is what?The fear of the Lord. Yet who could be fearful with much of what passes as a gospel presentation today, what with all the God has a wonderful plan for your life/Jesus loves you, messengers running around and leading churches? Food for thought.

C Fontenot and Melody - wonderful thoughts.

Peter, finally, Jesus loved the rich young ruler and then proceeded to tell him that which would send him away sad for had much wealth to eternal Hell for all we know about him, was that the wrong thing for Jesus to do? (Mark 10:21, 22 NASB says: <i> Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

In Mercy and Grace....