Andrew,

You’re just using different language than I would.  Would you not agree that as people learn to love God and are introduced to the gospel they will in fact change the world around them?  If not; then much is in vain. 

Maybe I should have said changing lives, rather than changing the world.

Todd

Hey Todd,

No, I disagree. I don’t think the Biblical record shows much change in the world around them at all. Amongst the believers and their families it certainly did, but outside of that the persecution only ever increased and the ‘worldly’ continued in their corrupt ways. The Church never has been anything other than a minority of the population and never has demonstrated any capacity whatsoever to “change the world”.

That’s because we are not called to change the world, but to come out from it! Your comment “If not; then much is in vain” demonstrates my point. God is not interested in “fixing” the sinful. Israel was always to be ‘apart’ from the world and never to change them. Instead, their role was to act as a beacon for God. The Church is likewise not intended to be an agent for social action, but rather a set-apart (ie; holy) community of those removed from the corruption of the fallen. By the way we love each other the sinner may come to accept the Gospel.

In any case, none of us can change a single life--if not our own then certainly not someone else’s--for that is the sole capacity of God Himself. Nothing we can do, in and of itself, can change one thing.

As for pastors/congregants swapping internal administration for evangelism in the community and demonstrating God’s love where before they only knew selfishness ... I’m all for THAT!

Exactly Peter. What change was there? Pentecost saw the beginning of severe persecution, martyrdom, the forced dispersal of the Church, etc, etc. That is, the world did not change.

What did change was THE CHURCH (which is my point). God is not about changing the world, but US. The Holy Spirit empowers us to do what we have been called to do: go wherever He leads, proclaim the Gospel, make disciples of Christ and actively work out our love for God in the way we love other people (especially other Christians). That’s it. No mention of changing the world there.

And this is where I leave the discussion to others. I’m happy to debate theology but I don’t want to be perceived as a crank. BTW, I’m a former Pentecostal pastor of some years’ experience, now enjoying a Reformed church which embraces the Holy Spirit’s active ministry today, and not at all “anti” as that comment seems to suggest.

In love,

Andrew and Todd.  Would you both agree that our ‘job’ (I’d rather say ‘calling’) is to manifest God’s Reign (allowing the Spirit to work God’s ‘magic’, as it were, by sanctifying us--conforming us in every way to the image of the Son), and that God uses this to destroy the work of the enemy?  The new Israel in Christ (a.k.a. the Church) is a city on a hill which radiates Christ’s beauty and holiness.  The more we submit to God, the more the Spirit transforms us and our works.  The more our works are manifested in the world (e.g. acts of kindness, service, love, sacrifice, non-violence, etc.), the more the Body shines, and the more ‘outsiders’ are baptized into the fold.  Do both of you not agree that the Kingdom will one day fill the universe?  Christ’s glorious Reign will be manifested from one end of the cosmos to the other.  Whatever is not conformed to his image will be eradicated.  As disciples, we are co-laborers in that entreprise.
Is this a fair synthesis of what both of you have been saying?  Andrew emphasizes the ‘smallness’ of our work (we don’t “fix” the world’s problems, rather, as a Body, we submit to Christ’s headship) and Todd emphasizes the globalness of its scope (the Spirit works through us to draw the whole world to Christ through the power of self-sacrificial love).  These need not be contradictory.
-Daniel-

I had never heard of Latter Rain, Third Wave or Dominionism before… so I had to look them up.  I’m not a part of them either as it turns out!
As I understand it, Gnosticism emphasizes ‘secret’ knowledge and tends to vilify (or at least ignore) physical things (because spiritual things are supposedly ‘better’).  In what way was my post Gnostic?
I fear differing eschatologies may be at play here.  I am much indebted to NT Wright and Andrew Perriman, and consequently have a very ‘open-ended’ eschatology.  Christ’s Kingdom fills the Earth in the fullness of time--and that’s as detailed as it gets for me.  I have no reason to think that the Church isn’t the primary means by which this is accomplished.  Even if this isn’t the case, as disciples we are called to be sanctified and to serve (in other words, to love God and to love others).  This changes the world.  Even if it’s only in ‘small’ ways.
My two cents.
-Daniel-

I would keep the original language - changin the world. The world is not an abstract entity, it is the united collection of individuals and we are called to change these individual people who are connected with others. Have we been successful? Debatable. Have we ever been successful? I do not know, and I do not think it matters to how I function. I am called to the here and now.

How I am doing in Naperville, IL Not well. I can some small comfort that I do not make stuff that helps other buy crap and watch porn ,but beyond that we have not changed the environment of our little corner of the world. But we have not given up nor shall we.

I claim Gal. 6:9. I will not grow weary of well doing and if I do not faint, then may be, prayerfully we will impact our community.

In response to Andrew, I do think Jesus intended change, why else be witnesses inj Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth?

I’m not sure our church is at the place where they yet know their God or themselves well enough to change their world.  It’s what we are working towards and I see glimmers of hope in that quarter, but not actively happening as a church body.

I have seen individual lives touched and changed one on one through personal relationships in our community.  People who have recognized their need for a Savior, through one on one ministry.  (52 this year and two more just this week).

I think if that’s what God can do with 4 people committed to changing their personal world and community (my husband and I and one other couple) what could he do with our entire church?

That’s my prayer for this year… that our church as a whole would becoming a passionate, outwardly focused body of believers.

Quite a pithy conversation.  I look at it like this: we are surrounded by a storm (the world) and so many people (the unsaved) are being drenched. Now, we (the church) can try to stop the storm, or offer those stuck in it shelter under our umbrella (the unconditional love of God).  Translation: I can’t change the world, but I can offer people who are being destroyed by the world my love and the love of my savior. Does that end up changing the world? I guess I’ll let larger minds than mine figure that out. Peace.