Somebody elsewhere in blogshere commented that this quote was :"Harsh, but not inaccurate” After thinking about it, I think that quote describes most of Driscoll’s preaching.

Mar’s Hill puts it’s original music on the web for free.  It is kinda weird in my opinion. Maybe just because I am not from Seattle.  If I had to describe it, I would say it is “Harsh but not inaccurate”

This fired me up. Here’s what I posted on the rockworship.com site:

What a load! I’m sorry, but I’ll be the one to call him out on this one.

“some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar”

I don’t care if he’s trying to make a point about one or two particular people or not, but he’s made a generalized statement that blanket covers worship leaders like myself. Way to build up the body.

Not saying that he has this viewpoint, but I’m tired of the idea that “manly” is the guy who goes hunting, fixes his own car, watches football, and scratches his crotch. How’s that for a generalization?

I’m sorry, but read in Scripture about the real men of God who weren’t afraid to pour out their heart to the Lord. Stand up and be a leader in the church, in the home. Love your wife and children. Serve, sacrifice. All else is vain, and does not a man make.

So much for Mark’s apology to the group that called him our (and wanted to picket Mar’s Hill) for his comments about Gayle Haggard.  Isn’t there something wrong with the spirit of a person when they couldn’t give a rip about how their words are received?

Daniel makes a good point.  These are really not comments about worship music, but a criticism of the people producing worship music.

Wendi

I agree that contemporary worship music could use songs with a lot more theological diversity and depth to them than much of what is being currently produced.  However, that message is lost in Driscoll’s tone and inflammatory language.  It’s a shame that someone who by all accounts is so smart and such a gifted teacher could be so lacking in wisdom when it comes to choosing his words.  Leonard and Daniel hit the nail on the head.

Okay, I admit to not being objective about this quote. But in my opinion, Mark Driscoll and this comment rocks! Although this is just one part of the issue, the style of worship music, worship lyrics, how many worship songs, how worship music is presented, what does the worship singer look like, how does the worship leader hold himself, etc. is one of the many reasons that men are bored stiff in church, why men are not challenged in church and why men are turned off and not coming to church. For churches to bury their head in the sand and say, “If men don’t like the music, then tough crap!” is the wrong answer.  If we know that when a man comes to church, the family will follow, why aren’t we making churches a place that men feel welcome. I went to a church on Sunday that has made changes to target men. I not only saw a whole lot of strong men. I also saw a whole lot of happy engaged women who love seeing made get excited and passionate about church.

Mike Ellis
Church For Men Florida
386-295-7739

Once again, Mark’s choice of language, get in the way of the point he’s trying to make.

Just yesterday, I read something interesting Leonard Sweet.  He points out that you can ask a group of grandparents if they would sacrifice their lives for their grandchildrn… and nearly everyone would say yes.  But will they sacrifice their preferred musical style to save their grandkids’ souls?

I think the point goes both ways.  Mark may not like it… but for some, the music he crticizes helps them to connect with God.  Same with the very traditional.

So Mark, how about just going and doing what God has called YOU to do, and spend a little less time worrying about what other folks are doing, and calling them names when you do.

Dave,

Yes I agree there’s something behind it, but it’s not worth listening to if it’s condescending, insulting, and crass.

We do need better depth in our songs. Like this little beauty… Thank you, Mr. Crowder, even if you are wearing a thiry-year old warm up jacket and have a funny looking beard… (He uses the word “antonym” in a worship song, how cool is that!)

I am full of earth You are heaven’s worth
I am stained with dirt prone to depravity
You are everything that is bright and clean
the antonym of me. You are divinity

But a certain sign of grace is this:
From the broken earth flowers come
pushing through the dirt.

And you are holy, holy, holy
All heaven cries, “Holy, holy God.
“Oh You are holy, holy, holy
I want to be holy like You are

You are everything that is bright and clean
And You’re covering me with Your majesty

And the truest sign of grace was this:
from wounded hands redemption fell down
liberating man

But the harder I try
the more clearly can I
feel the depth of our fall
and the weight of it allAnd so this might could be
the most impossible thing:
Your grandness in me
making me clean
Glory, hallelujah
Glory, Glory, Hallelujah

So here i am, all of me.
Finally everything.
Wholly, Wholly wholly
I am wholly wholly wholly
I am wholly wholly wholly Yours
I am wholly Yours
I am full of earth and dirt and You

Leonard,

Point taken, about not retrying MD and remembering that he later made it clear his comments were not directed at Gayle Haggard.  Mainly I brought it up because the uproar led to the threatened picketing and then a meeting with a number of his critics, at which time Mark (as he described it on his blog) apologized for his habit of being offensive and inflammatory.  He said that he was going to have someone read his stuff and hold him accountable.  He sounded (to me) like the uproar had caused him to reflect realize that he needed to make some significant changes.  IMO his comments about worship music indicate that either he was insincere last year, just appeased people to stop the picketing and cool the uproar, or that he didn’t put in place a very good accountability plan.  I understand that old habits are hard to break, but if I really want to change a habitual behavior, I’m going to find some people who will be brutally honest, who are outside my inner circle, not biased toward me (not my sister or my husband or my best friend), and fully submit myself to their assessment of my behaviors.

You are very right Leonard, MD is misusing the “influence coins” God has entrusted to him.  I recall what the nobleman said to the servant who did not manage well what he was given. 

And adude, Jesus certainly didn’t measure his words against popular opinion, but neither did He offend unless there was a clear kingdom purpose.  I don’t think calling devoted disciples “effeminate guys with acoustic guitars” has any kingdom value.  In fact, I think it has the opposite effect, unnecessary damage to kingdom relationships.  These guys aren’t the Pharisees.

Wendi

Hey Leonard,

I here ya on the masculine issue..............I have met my share of wimpy men over the past 30 years. Men who refused to be men. Men who refused to lead.

But, I do think some of our “what is a man” tends to be culturally based and sometimes how we judge a man is based on our own cultural and personal experiences.

Many a soft spoken, quiet man has been accused of being “light in his loafers”

I am lover of sports. Any, all. If it has a ball I am inclined to watch it. Yet, I despise boxing, WWF, etc.........any so called sport where the express purpose is to maim the other guy. I used to hunt and fish........but now I prefer to shoot with a camera. My dad was a gun dealer so we had lots of guns in our home. All kinds. I shot virtually everything imaginable. Yet, I own no guns today.

I cry over a good movie. The poverty and plight of others move me to tears.

My point is..............even a guy like me, a big guy, burly guy, 6ft guy, who still thinks he can kick your ____
guy, has traits that some in our culture would consider “sissy”

To me a real man is one who loves his family and puts them first. A real man is one who will sacrifice for others. A real man is one who will stand firm when he needs to, even to his own harm.  If such a guy is soft spoken, hates sports,and doesn’t hunt/fish/trap he is still a man to me. It is a matter of character rather than culture.

I think real men have hair on their chest AND Back and only sissies shave off all their hair or get a wax job

Just a joke..............but it is my lame attempt to show my generation’s cultural bias. We don’t like the metrosexual look.........

I know I am just rambling...........

Bruce

I agree that the characterization of “some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar” is un-called for and out of line. But then, that’s nothing new from Mark. With Mark it’s 50/50 whether it was unintentionally or purposefully inflamatory, ignorance or attitude. You gotta take anything Mark says with a grain of salt, look past the rhetoric for the real meaning.

As for wanting more original music from the bottom up, I couldn’t agree more. I wish our worship leader would sing more original material. I know there’s plenty. Although I’m sure Mark still wouldn’t like it because she’s an “effeminate” girl with an acoustic guitar.

Just a note to Josh about Driscoll’s “men have trouble worshiping a God that they could beat up"… Have you noticed the irony of this??  God did get beat up.  Crucified, in fact.  And as disciples of the crucified God, this should affect our definition of manliness.
That being said, all that’s been said above about the church recovering its ‘manliness’ (which I assume simply means balancing the womanliness with manliness, rather than eradicating femininity altogether...) seems appropriate.  Testosterone is of God.  As is beer and a good hike.  Both male and female bear the image of God, and our churches would do well to hear this. 
And theology plays a role in this (sorry folks, you can’t escape it).  Reformed theology, with its emphasis on a satisfaction (read penal substitution) theory of the atonement makes it very easy to preach on so-called ‘wrath’.  Triumphalist dispensational eschatologies also do the same thing with their emphasis on the so-called ‘second coming’ (Jesus was meek and lowly the first time, but he’s coming back to kick your butt!).  Our theology inevitably shapes how we speak of God, and how we speak of God will inevitably be interpreted as more ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ by congregants.  Of course, this leads to a good healthy debate about what ‘true’ masculinity and ‘true’ femininity are.  And that’s always a fun road to go down…
My two cents.
-Daniel-

Worship is not for us it’s an offering to God. I think when we start to get so critical about it we’ve lost the point. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for creativity and musicians writing their own music etc. I just think when we start to bash the music of our churches and say such harsh things that we’re becoming the Christians non Christians stay away from. We’re so busy criticizing the way the Church does everything it takes up all our time and energy we could actually be out spreading the Word of God. I guess we play right in the enemy’s hand this way. Bad or good music, I just want to worship my God.

I keep thinking of the really good worship that is out there, Baloche, Crowder and more.

Yes, there is namby pamby worship stuff produced, sold and used in our churches.  Just as there has always been.  I can think of hymns I would list in this category.  And I grew up in the 70’s when there was so much junk out there I cringe to think of it.

It’s interesting to note that in our church it’s young single guys who are coming to Christ and into worship and we have an all girl worship team.  It is effiminate, because we have no guy worship leaders to draw from.  But it’s the guys out in the congregation I see crying while they worship.  And they are changing their lives and drawing near to God.

And we are in gun shooting, country, where guys pride themselves on how manly they are.

I don’t think there’s a formula for worship.  It’s a Holy Spirit moving thing.  Yes, we need to be aware of what tools we use and how we use them.  But ultimately, worship is about God and our relationship to Him, individually and corporately.  And God can even use a woman to draw a guy into worship, and yes, even a feminine looking guy with okay music.

And when it comes down to what we will be singing in worship in 10 years, there will be lots of songs we cringe at.  But I think we’ll still be singing “Blessed Be Your Name” and “How Great is Our God” and “Offering”.