Wal-Mart does its business analaysis, finds a sites, builds it and the people come.  Why?  They offer something the people need.  But not every one has the same needs.  Not every person shops at Wal-Mart - just enough so it is profitable.

The early church did not have the advantage of buildings.  The early church was in the minority for the first two centuries.  Most people did not know they needed God and His offer of salvation. 

Today the culture is changing and Christianity is the minority group in many places.  Building a nice building works for those who have a need for a church building type of ministry.  But for the rest, we are to go make disciples.  I like the comment about the one who coached little league.  For me, my wife and I focused on the fact that the pastor is supposed to be hospitable.  We invite people to our home for a meal.  Visitation does not work so well here but people enjoy an invitation to the pastor’s home where the pastor’s wife can really cook.  And by the way, most people have a need to eat.  And...about 80 percent who come to dinner stay to join the church.  We are not Wal-Mart...just a church.

What exactly is the VFW Hall, what activity goes on their?

Link away, Chad… Link away! 

Todd

This message is for Randy;
I think you missed the point Randy! The point was, whether dollar amount, or head count, people are seen for the value they can give to the business to keep it viable.
We do the same thing on Sunday morning. Try running a church with no body there!!!! Pretty soon the value of those people is measured in many ways, their tithe, their support of ministry, their gifting. Walmart doesn’t ask for my gifts or my support other than buying their products.
Walmart meets my material needs and I gladly pay them for it, if it’s a good deal.
A weathy and successful business owner told me once that a “good” deal is a profit for the seller or vendor and a reasonble price and quality product for the purchaser.
Parallel that with the church; a good “deal” is our people receive spiritual food and give back into the storehouse so the supply is continuous.  Why do you think the tithe was instituted? A large part of the reason was so the Priests, temple worship needs would be met.They were God’s instruments of His Word, Will and Government.  God called it a tithe and NOT a tax.  A tax is a bill, a tithe is connected to our life and heart.
The church practices business, like it or not. Sometimes it’s good at it sometimes not so good. The Spiritual dynamic is that God can take our little and magnify to his glory supernatually because it’s all His anyway. The problem is we often don’t see our people as valueable, only commodities or “giving” units. So...what’s the differece between that and Walmart. At least Walmart attached a figure to it. We like to keep it hush hush as if being quiet is more “spiritual” or more “Godly”.  Your employer hired you for you can “give” into his business. And you don’t think he’s counting the profits or benefits from hireing you? If you’re a Pastor, you don’t think that board or Elderboard or congregation hadn’t considered what they were getting? Value is caluculated, we just don’t talk about it.
Our nation suffers from people feeling devalued and being just a cog in a big wheel.  Knowing that Walmart considers me worth $215,000. makes me feel like I have a little more power to push a point when disputing a broken product or cutting a deal.
THANKS TODD, you did good. You’ve encouraged me to make it know to my congregation how valueable they are to me and God. And just maybe the courage to say “how” much their worth.
Reconsider your comment Randy, I think it’s more profound than giving only a glance.

Randy,

I wasn’t implying that churches must guage their fruitfullness on numbers.  Even a small church that has faithful members can do great work.  But no church can be fruitful (or whatever you want to call it) if they do not have people.  What you do once you have them in the door is what really counts, but a little creativity in getting them to church never hurt.

The thrust of this topic is not really about WAL-MART, but it is about adapting tools that have worked well in other areas such as business and marketing.  Simply put, all marketing really is is a tool to get out a valuable message to the people that need it, whether that message is “Pork chops are on Sale” or “You can have more abundant life with Jesus Christ”.  The greatest church in the world will fail if nobody knows about it.  Let’s get the word out.

James says… “I think you missed the point Randy! The point was, whether dollar amount, or head count, people are seen for the value they can give to the business to keep it viable” and “The church practices business, like it or not.”

James, one phrase hit me like a ton of bricks: “...people are seen for the value they can give...” This is the difference between Wal-mart and the Church, the difference between “business” and the kingdom of God, and the difference between a so-called free market economy (free for the giants, not so free for the weak and oppressed) and the Gospel. 

Wal-mart views humankind as a market… except for their workers, whom they view as machines.  God views humankind as “a little lower than the angels.” Wal-mart places an accounting value of 275K on customers, and very little value on God’s good creation.  Business-as-usual promotes over-consumption and greed; not so the Kingdom.  Wal-mart economic philosophy promotes “to the winner goes the spoils” and “bigger is better” and “everyday low prices.” Wal-mart and business principles and good marketing may make logical sense to you.  The Gospel, on the other hand, makes no sense and turns everything upside down.  The mission of Jesus involves the reversal of the expected order of the world.  Remember Mary’s song?  “God has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; God has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.”

James, is the church really in business? Consider....

Good business says to guard the 99 and write the one lost lamb off as inventory shrinkage; but “Kingdom Values” leaves the 99 and searches for the lost lamb. Good business says recruit the best workers for the lowest wage; but “Kingdom Values” pays everyone the wage for a full day, even the ones who worked only an hour.  Good business says value your customers and never-mind all the rest (and Wal-mart does this better than most); but “Kingdom Values” tell us to love our enemies, to be peacemakers, to invite over for dinner those who cannot repay us, and to welcome “whosoever will” to the celebrations.

Yes, it is all about people.  But it is about ALL the people.  Wal-mart focuses on one group of people: paying customers.  Churches based on business models often do the same.  But the Kingdom of God is not like that.  The Kingdom focuses on the last and the least.  In the OT this was widows and orphans, the poor and the strangers (immigrants!). In the NT this is Samaratans and tax colectors, outcasts and “sinners.”

Yes, I agree with Todd’s original and basic point.  But please don’t tell me (GR Guy), the article is not really about Wal-mart, because it is.  I agree with Todd’s point.  I disagree with using Wal-mart as an illustation.  Would Todd use Las Vegas casinos to make a point?  They care about their customers, too.  Should we use the mafia as an example of positive community?  They care about “family values.”

Every purchase we make is a moral choice.  We live in a broken world still awaiting ultimate redemption, so none of us (especially in North America) can make moral chioces in our purchasing all the time.  However, we must be conscious of it, and we must strive to make moral choices.  We ask God to help us in this area whenever we pray “thy kingdom come!”

Rev. Christian, I’m curious if your strategy of “just preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified” has worked in your own experience.  Have you done this?  Has your church caught fire and transformed your community?

Most unbelievers today are cynical of the church.  They need to experience the love of God through the people in the local church and understand the relevance of God to their own life before they are receptive to the preaching of Jesus Christ and Him crusified.

This is nothing new.  Jesus himself showed people he loved them and they mattered to Him before he preached to them.  He listened to the woman at the well.  He went to dinner with Zacchaeus.  He healed scores of people.  He spoke in parables that were relevant to people’s lives.  All before He asked anyone to follow Him or spoke of His own death.

I also find it odd that you would rather preach to 5 Christians than 1,000 unbelievers.  Is that not the complete opposite of what Jesus taught and demonstrated in his life?

Rev. Christian, thanks for your response and for pointing out my oversight.  I am still curious as to whether your strategy has actually worked.  Do you lead a church that is on fire and transforming your community?

I would also be curious to know what you consider church gimmicks.  Is worshiping God with music in a contemporary style a gimmick?  A drama the depicts are real-world application of faith?  Using video in a service?  Using a translation of the Bible in today’s English?

Matthew threw a party for all his friends so he could provide them with an opportunity to meet Jesus.  Was that a gimmick?

Seems to me there are two extremes churches ought to avoid.  On the one hand there are some churches that are primarily about attracting people by any means and are light on preaching the gospel.  On the other hand there are some churches that are primarily about preaching truth but make no attempt to be culturally relevant or speak in terms unbelievers can understand.  There is a middle ground where churches are culturally relevant, meet people where they’re at, and address other needs in order to earn the right to be heard.  (Yes, I believe everyone including the local church has to earn the right to be heard.)

The reason most unbelievers are cynical (beyond the moral failures of church leaders) is because they think most churches and Christians are judgemental, primarily interested in telling people how they ought to live, and practice conditional acceptance.

There is a culture gap between Christians and unbelievers.  Are we as Christians willing to walk across that gap to engage unbelievers or do we stand firmly on our side of the gap and tell people if they want to experience God they have to do it on our terms?

To: GR Guy (btw, is that GR as in Grand Rapids, Michigan?… I lived there for two great years.... just across the street from the great Central Reformed Church… ah, but I disgress...)

GR Guy says, “Todd could have used Apple Computer or a thousand other companies in his illustration and made the very same points he did.”

Ah… but he didn’t… because Wal-mart is ubiquitous.  Shouldn’ t the church living “in the world” make an attempt to understand the icons and idols and temples of the world?  Of course.  For many, Wal-mart is Salvation.  After all, it offers everyday low prices to the poor and needy—never mind if people really needed half of what they bought once they were lured inside the store because it’s the cheapest place for toilet paper and school supplies; and never mind how Wal-mart coerces local governments into providing corporate welfare.  After all, it offers jobs to poor rural communities—never mind if the jobs can’t support a family..... and I could go on and on.  Again, I refer you to the Walmart Watch website.

GR Guy says, “You want to make Wal-mart the focus of this blog --- As Christians I agree it might be good to debate whether a certain company is ethical or not in their business practices, but that is really a separate discussion.” No, actually not.  Todd’s title for this little corner of the blog-universe was “Maybe the Church Should Become a Little More Like Wal-Mart…” and my answer is “Heck, NO!” And, to clarify, please understand that my answer is “heck no!” not because I disagree with Todd’s point about focusing on people, but precisely because I do!”

Wow!  Good discussion.  I guess Wal Mart is great fodder for debate, especially when used as a loose analogy to help us jostle out of too stale mindsets. 

Going back to page one of comments:  CURT- LOL

And I am not responding to anyone else except the writer of the blog and the questions that were posed, as many seem to be playing in a bucketful of monkeys or a can of worms here. 

Do we as a church care about people? 

On one hand, maybe some people make a good point that big churches care about people insofar as that there are over 10,000 people here again this week and we must’ve done another bang up job.  But beyond that, who knows if people are getting saved.  And if they are saved, who knows if they are being sanctified? 

Then on the flip side, you have small churches committed to losing no one out of their congregation of 25 but beyond lip service not really wanting to increase to 26 unless of course the next member to join acts like, eats like, sounds like, looks like and talks like the rest of us.  And if the poor soul who comes in next doesn’t fit all the categories, then we can train and mentor until they do.

I feel a bit of despair over these questions.  My soul is a little deflated simply at the sheer ineffectiveness of most churches to really show the hands of God to the lost world around us.  I was just talking to the associate pastor today about how so many of us in church forget that there is a story behind each person, each face that we see.  We offer one product.  Everyone must fit into the mold we have cast.  Look the same, act the same, etc. 

Who knows which woman sitting in our congregation is going home and literally being beat by her husband?  She shows up Sunday morning searching, looking for God.  Does she get the encounter she hoped for? 

Who knows which teen has been sexually abused by a family member and has resorted to cutting and wearing black, showing up to our sanctuary smelling like stale cigarettes and covered in dog hair?  They look grim, won’t make eye contact but they came looking for a “product” to cure their problem, answer their addictions.  Do they find it? 

What of the 80 year old man who is losing his memory, his hearing has gone by the wayside, his wife has passed away and even his grandchildren are grown and have moved away so there is no one to help him get groomed just so.  Maybe he has whiskers, his hair is unkempt and there is a musty aroma about him.  But he wants to feel valued.  He knows that he grew up, got married, had children, held a job, maybe served our country in a war and all that time knew people depended on him and he felt valued.  Now he shows up and sits next to a young family and stares a bit too much but doesn’t say a word.  He wants to know if he is noticed.  Is he needed?  Does God still have any use for him on this earth?  Does he find what his heart longs for?

Or do these people come in and check out without really ever finding what they needed?  Do we spend so much time picking our worship songs, practicing with the choir and the band, thinking of programs and how to captivate and entertain people with a garnish of Jesus on the side for decoration that our community is no more changed than if they went to the local cinema and watched Evan Almighty? 

And when they walk out our doors, do we really know what product they were searching for to begin with?  Which aisle we should have pointed them towards? 

What’s the priority?  The marketing of our products?  The positioning of our staff?  The amount people spend while they are there?

The difference between a healthy church and Wal-Mart is this:  When people go to Wal-Mart, they go to bring more stuff home with them.  When people go to a healthy, ministering church, they should be able to leave carrying less baggage than when they came in.