Mark Broadbent:

All of those statements are true.  Now here are the questions to you: how does one change when he is saved by Christ?  How is his life supposed to look?  Specifically, what is that person’s relationship to sin.

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CS

Brian L. said: “I have never heard any of my Calvinist friends describe the doctrine as a license to sin.”

-----------Brian, I have never heard my pastor friends describe the doctrine as a license to sin either, at least in a direct way. But it is impossible to ignore the millions of people, over the years, who attend funerals and hear that the church going wife abuser [everyone knew, but no one confronted] is now in heaven.

More than one drunk driver who has killed others in their wreck has been declared heaven bound.

I recently attended a service where the young man was declared in heaven, even though he was in a drug and drunken state, when HIS FRIEND THE SHERIFF was forced to shot him [dead] for faking a gun pointed at him. Oh, that was after the once saved guy turned lose his kidnapped hostage.

Hundreds heard that service, and certainly went away knowing that that the message did say in a subtle way, once saved is a license to sin. Why they heard the pastor declare the guy in heaven---after forcing his friend to kill him.

Or we might remember the old church gossip who has tried to ruin more than one reputation in the church; particularly the preachers, and has on occasion accomplished her/his mission. But the good, old dear is declared in heaven, though carnage is strewn all over by her/his gossip and slander. 

No, I know of no pastor who gives outright license to sin, but the inference is there. Thousands upon thousands of people hear pastors every week, at funerals, that a person who described themselves as a Christian, and never missed a Sunday, is in heaven now, but most everyone in attendance knows he/she lived like the devil. Then many of them will read a book like Stanley’s “Eternal Security.” Add up those funeral declarations, books, and other teachings, and no wonder there are millions who get the subtle message, “Once saved...a license to sin.

Yep, my good, old baptist, deacon, friend whose son hasn’t been faithful to his wife after the first week of marriage, and smacks her around to keep here in line---would fight me to the death------"My son is saved because he was saved when he was 14.” Wonder how he came up with that?
fishon

Hi CS

I believe that once a person encounters Jesus, and puts their faith in him, a number of things happen…

1. They have their past, present and future sins paid for.

2. They are granted eternal life

3. They receive the Holy Spirit

4. They will find the Holy Spirit will wrestle against their sinful nature in such a way that there are times when they hate sin and love God, and other times when they will crave sin and neglect God.

5. Over time there will be outward signs that the Holy Spirit is working in their life.

HOWEVER…

I do not believe that once a person is a Christian, that they will never deliberately sin.

Lets just be honest, every sin is deliberate. We sin because the sinful nature in us craves sin.

And I think it is very possible for a person to be truly born again and yet go out a murder someone.  (King David committed murder, and he had the Spirit living in him).

And to be honest, I am going to deliberately sin every day.

I hate sin. But the sinful nature in me craves it. “I do what I don’t want to do”

If a requirement for salvation is that I will never deliberately sin again, we are all going to hell.

Mark

Folks, if Mark Broadbent’s post is not a subtle license to sin, I don’t know what is.

“And I think it is very possible for a person to be truly born again and yet go out a murder someone.  (King David committed murder, and he had the Spirit living in him).”
-------hum, how many murders would it take before you decided he had never been saved?--------there is the loop hole for many of you.
fishon

Mark Broadbent:

Thanks for your posts.  It’s been wonderful reading your train of thought and understanding of things.

With regards to sin (and this is where I was going with my initial question), when a person has been saved and born-again by God, there is a complete change of nature with how we deal with sin.  We hate it.  We want nothing to do with it.  But, you’re right in that Christians still do sin.  After all, we will still live in the flesh until we go one day to be with the Lord.

But here’s the challenge: the relationship we have with sin should be completely different.  Instead of wallowing in sin, planning it, looking for occasions to do it, we want to avoid it.  Unlike what this shooter did in obsessing about it and methodically carrying it out.

It says in 1 John 3 that if we continue in lifestyles of sin, we are not children of God, but of the devil.  Romans 6 makes it clear that we should not deliberately sin so grace may abound more, but we should be dead to it.  We have a total admonishment in the Bible to not be intentional sinners.

However, when we do sin, as it says in 1 John 9, we confess that to our Father and He will forgive us.  This is the kind of sin that we might, “trip,” on, such as seeing a woman jogging or accidentally getting more change than we should from the store.  Yet we still hate it and war against it.  The Bible says that this is repentance (metanoia) of our sin, and not just feeling bad because of the effects of the sin (metamelomai).

I understand the conflict, Mark, that you are going through.  And because I’ve been there, I have to ask you this: have you truly repented of your sins in full?  Are there still sins that you desire to do and find occasion to act upon?  Do you understand the difference between being in a battle with sin and surrendering to it?

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CS

CS said: But here’s the challenge: the relationship we have with sin should be completely different.  Instead of wallowing in sin, planning it, looking for occasions to do it, we want to avoid it.  Unlike what this shooter did in obsessing about it and methodically carrying it out.
------Hum, kinda like Bakker, Swaggart, Haggard, wallowing in sin, planning it, looking for occasions to do it...Well, maybe I am wrong, but from my limited understanding, those guys obsessed about it and “methodically” carried it out.
fishon

I’m late jumping into this discussion and won’t comment on what this pastor did or didn’t say.  None of us were there for the whole conversation so any comment is out of context.

What I can’t stand is the way these kind of theological discussions leads human beings to a place where they judge whether or not someone gets (got) into heaven.  Arrrrgh.  Please stop me whenever I start talking like I’m God.

Wendi

Wendy,
Then to stay on solid ground on your position about judging:: “...to where they judge whether or not someone gets (got) into heaven,”
-----Do I need to take out of my message tomorrow that Brylee [5 months old] is now in heaven {Paradise}?

-----And to stay consistent to your dislike of judging as to whether someone is in heaven or not, then I take it you really dislike the millions of funeral services where the pastor has declared someone in heaven? Or might it be, you just don’t like someone saying that so and so is not in heaven?

Oh, by the way, if you think it is ok for me to declare Brylee in heaven, at what age would you advise me to stop saying that about children?
fishon

My main issue is that we get ourselves into far too many discussions about heaven, especially when it goes to whether or not someone who “said” they were a Christian was really “Christian enough” to have gotten in.  Jesus mentioned heaven, discussed it very little and really didn’t teach about it at all.  There are however, many things He gave lots of instruction about.  I feel we should major on the things Jesus majored on, and that wasn’t (IMO) teaching about where one will go after they die.

I had a seminary professor who caused a big ruckus when he posed this question to us (prefacing the question with the assurance that he IS NOT a universalist):  Suppose Jesus communicated to the world in some way today that His atoning work was going to allow everyone to be with Him in paradise, in other words, everyone gets in.  How does this new knowledge change the way you live your life and serve as a minister of the gospel?

Great question I thought, and for me it changed very little (some, but not much).

Wendi

CS, I think we know what Wendi was driving at.

[sarcasm] After all, Jesus sure did mention and talk about Heaven a whole lot less than we evangelicals would like people to believe in our “merely transactional” religion we seem to have created, the kind of wrong-headed thinking that leads to situations like the one being discussed, where grace merely excuses our sin and doesn’t actually change us any… [/sarcasm]

Forgive the silly little evangelical in Northern CA for a second here.  By big flipping deal if Jesus did or didn’t talk a lot about heaven.  We cannot classify scripture and weight it that way.  That will most certainly lead to bad doctrine.  Paul, John, Jesus… to name a few talked about heaven.  How many times do any of these guys have to mention it in order for it to be important?

As for the point I think Wendi was making, There is a process to sanctification.  For some it takes longer for others it goes quicker.  Emotional maturity, age maturity, history, families of origin all influence how quickly one grows and how deeply one hungers for God after beginning a relationship with Christ.  To run around and measure whether someone is in or out is not really how I want to spend my time. 

CS, fishon and whoever is a part of this discussion.  A question avoided on another post is.  Are you actively discipling people for the purpose of making disciples?  this might do more good than making people squirm with the law.  just sayin

Wendi:

(Regarding the prof’s question.) “But when I think of God’s mercy, I am still admonished by the creator of the universe to present my life a worship offering to Him.”

That’s the catch.  Mercy would mean that there is a choice between leniency and enacting justice.  But if it’s universally applied, and no one would go to Hell, then that action could not be called, “merciful.” So it couldn’t be God’s mercy that would draw us, and in the process God becomes less than just.

It’s kind of like if I never disciplined my kids and always gave them a cookie, even when they disobeyed.  If I never correct their actions and deprived them of a cookie, then my giving, even when they screw up and deliberately disobey, wouldn’t be merciful, it would show that I would be unjust.

Leonard:

“CS, fishon and whoever is a part of this discussion.  A question avoided on another post is.  Are you actively discipling people for the purpose of making disciples?  this might do more good than making people squirm with the law.  just sayin “

I had replied back in that other thread with an example, so, yes.

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CS

Peter, I get how ministry can get in the way of ministry.  Happens to me all the time.  A few suggestions that I hope are recieved as encouragement.

I disciple in 4 different ways
#1 I disciple 1 on 1 This is 3-4 guys and ususally last 2-3 years and we meet 42-46 weeks a year.  Each meeting is really having coffee, talking about life and faith skills and teaching basic bible doctrine and history.  This is a great way to develop leaders. 

#2 Small Group - 3-5 guys.  Usually around a specific topic, last for about a year and is intended to multiply.  Get them to do the same with others.  We usually meet about 45 times a year.

#3 Challenge discipleship - This is the form of asking people to join me in a spiritual adventure.  Getting people to read their bible, pray daily, share Christ with another person… This is done with about 25 people a year and usually lasts a month at a time.

#4 Skill or knowledge discipleship - This is training and developing peoples gifts and skills for ministry.  It is helping people gain knowledge of doctrine and theology, life skill… It is when I teach someone to study or to preach or to write small groups or to communicate and conflict resolve… I do this outside my church more than inside my church… it is almost like consulting/mentoring.  I usually meat with someone 3-6 times depending upon the need. 

This is how I rhythm my life for discipleship.  It is how I do my best to make disciples.  My rules are simple

If you are willing and want to learn and grow… I am willing and want to help.  If you are not willing… I am not either.  Actions show willingness. 

I encourage others to start small, make sure you point to Jesus ALL the time, be focused on what you want to build…

The person I seek to build has 5 great loves…

Loves God
Loves others
Loves the Bible
Loves the church
Loves God’s plan in the world