Todd,

Sometimes you amaze me. It take a lot of courage to open up discussions on topics like this.

I’ve seen or experienced everything in your commments and I think you’re right on. I would make one addition to the fifth comment: “Most pastors either will get fed up and leave because of the conflict; or get fed up and leave because of the lack of decision making and the status-quo.” Sometimes I think some of us faced with this type of situation stay too long hoping to somehow get the church “unstuck” (by nature we pastors tend to be a hardheaded lot). This rarely works and then we do end up getting fired. I applaud Pastor Kirk’s wisdom in recognizing it was his time to move on before it got to that point.

I agree with all of your insights todd, but how about this one.  “The press release said he was committed to God’s “big picture’ plan that is “often ‘unfathomable’ from our limited perspective.’” I read that as “I know Gods big plan and you don’t”.  Could it be that the vision of the church or direction it was going was Kirks and not the church’s?  I have seen new pastors have a vision for the church before they are even hired.  How can you have a vision when you don’t even know where the church is, or what it needs, or what gifts and talents are available.  OK I’ll get off my soapbox now.  Great article!  Thanks Todd

Bart,

Very well could be… like I said, I don’t know the issues.  The article does say that the pastor had been there for 15 years though… that’s quite a long time.

Todd

The pastor may have been burned out by continual stress and conflict.  Sometimes a pastor may get really fixated on a vision or plan that may be what the church needs to mature and grow while the board is happy with the status quo.  The manner of the pastor’s resignation was selfish.  Rather than “I prayed about it...” shouldn’t it have been - “We have met and prayed and fasted about it...” I was in a church where the pastor was so strongly attached to his vision that he initated a church split, maintained a simple majority, and the church that remained did grow.  Was it God’s vision?  Maybe.  I’m also mindful of the seven letters in Revelation 2 & 3 where the Lord threatens to remove the angels (pastors?) from some of the churches which indicates to me that the leadership had the vision but the churches did not?  Just my thoughts.

sadly to say… sounds like the guy just had enough period.  It does sound like many, include me, that have had it with what I would call-- the please all the people all of the time old way-- which we all know was the way we saw pastors 20 years ago.  You know, the guy doing it all, keeping everybody happy and preaching great sermons-- that is what they did.  Oh and visit everybody in the church. Then, the new “type” of CEO pastor comes along-- via the board and is told the he can almost have carte blanche at new vision, when in truth, there is no way the pastor is going to over come the hurdle of moving from the old to the new… no way.  The old blood still wants a piece of the action, they still want things done the way it :used” to be done.  The new model will not work… in that setting.  Oh they say they want new vision and all that jazz-- forget about it.  More fires pop up-- and the new pastor is not about to go put them out like the old time pastor.  That is not his job anymore… he is the CEO.  The fires are for the underlings--- but that won’t work.  The model of the mega and all the models out there have contributed to the reality---
that the leader is still the hired guy, and that role had better be defined in each church as they go-- the people need to be re educated-- or go back and read the authors of books on pastoral theology and find out how far, or how different the views on this have come.  I would rather stop playing the game of having one foot in the old-- (the shepherd) and one foot in the new (the CEO)-- leave those and develop the more adequate role.  That I beleive is the future discussion.

My penny.

Hey dsurvivor-- or JMH--

Maybe you or I believe-- that there is authority in the position.  That went away along time ago.  Maybe from the pastors that threw authority around, maybe from its abuse, but that view is long gone.  Unless of course you talk to the grey hairs… but then, they have their own issues.  Again, we have a new kid on the block and he is for churches that are bigger than the ones that still see the pastor as the shepherd-- he is now the CEO period.  If the corporation isn’t cutting it, if the stock holders are unhappy… well, heads will roll.  That is what is happening.  Call it what you will-- we are Americans man, you know, we stand on the declaration of Independence-- “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...” That is what we have become… perusing our agendas and our happiness and if the paid guy isn’t making us happy… well, they’ll make him unhappy, so they can get happy.  I’m sorry, but the upheaval is all over the place… look at the emergent movement-- look at the guys leaving--- the church and its dynamic of reaching people has turned into reaching the unhappy other pew sitters at some other joint-- bring them over here and on and on and on....

Don

check out the country of Niger-- Africa---
famine going on there.  Need people that care...Maybe a great place for a man of God.
You might find that ministry is not so much a vocation-- maybe a lifestyle.

Maybe its not about lots of stuff it has become.... hmmmmm, maybe the man of God really isn’t supposed to be all polished and together… maybe the man of God leads the way to the impoverished, the least of these.

I’ve been watching the blog for several months and am just now led to respond the woman’s statement about trying to work “in a spirit of unity.”

I wonder what was so hard about it...maybe it was suggested properly above that unity means “you just do what I want.” It is very difficult to discuss vision when statements begin with “I...”

I have sat in Bible studies at a church that was going through 3 very angry lawsuits and a confusing thing happened - both sides would interpret the same scripture to support their stance.  There is usually a right solution and direction, but that’s not the heart of the need, is it?

“We love you, pastor… but you need to do what we ask.”

Been there, done that, have the knife protruding out of my back to prove it.

“Podley said some long-standing members of the 109-year-old church felt they were not being involved in the future direction of the congregation. In the past because of the church’s Congregational roots a broader cross-section of members was involved in decision making, strategy and direction, he said.”...........
Sounds like the old gaurd was losing their power base and they dont like it, they want to show everyone who is in charge and its not the pastor.... Hey we love him but we sure didnt ask him to stay.... now you must also realize that a lot of pastors cause self inflicted wounds. In this case I would not think that because he had been there for 15 yrs.  but it happens.  Ron Dunn has a great message for pastors when their people turn on them its called “Surviving Friendly Fire” I have been hit by it and seen a lot of good friends go down because of it.. one day there will be an accounting of the books

Stuck in the middle of that right now.  Seems that we’ve spoken alot in the church about forgiveness, unity, and dying to self.  The leadership is constantly pushed to do these things for those who attack them.  (intentionally or not)
But I’ve yet to hear much about how we speak with one another:  words like respect, dignity, truth in LOVE....

I’ve seen people whose behavior and words in any other setting would get them into a lawsuit...but in the church they maintain their “power” by bullying and continuing their verbal assaults while sprinkling it with scripture references. 
I’ve been told by the lay leadership to die to self and continue to forgive those who continue to assault me while they are not held accountable. 
Don’t think I need to do much dying to self when it’s already being killed off word by word.

Uhhhh..."he’s truth” (or whatever your name is)...being an elder/ pastor does carry with it the responsibility of leading/ruling the body.  Not popular, but that is a responsibility of the office of elder/pastor. 

From your post, one would think that a pastor is to preach and shut-up where leading/decision-making is concerned.  This is very old school, very unbiblical and the invention of power-hungy, arrogant men who want to control God through controlling His leaders. 

Don’t mistake this for an endorsement of the CEO/Senior Pastor view, though...which is equally out of step with the bible.  A plurality of elders who qualify under 1 Timothy 3 should lead churches...not boards, businessmen or deacons who want much authority and no responsibility.

A new reformation in leadership is needed and it starts with taking 1 Timothy 3 and Titus as authoritative and God-breathed...check back in ten years and we can compare notes.

What is the pastor’s Biblical job?

What is the Biblical framework of a local body supposed to be?

Is the Pastor, called by God, always right and without error?

If it is true that the “dumb” sheep need a shepard/pastor to lead them, why do we think a “dumb” sheep is able to lead by himself. Remember the pastor is still a sheep.

Why does the Bible say wisdom comes by a multidue of counselors, but many pastors on this board are implying the “dumb” sheep should have no say?

Is this the correct interpretation?

Eph. 4:11-12 “He gave some ... to be pastors to build large churches and lead the “dumb” sheep”

I think the pastors job is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. Of course He also gave apostles, evangelist, and teachers to do the same.

I thought the Bible showed that elders, and deacons would also oversee the church.

You would almost think the God was setting it up so that many inputs would work against those “wrong” decisions and policies.  If a pastor had complete authority in a church, well you would have to hope he was not really a wolf in disguise.  I guess you would also have to hope he was completely sanctified or he could lead the people down a wrong path.

I guess it comes down to can a man called by God to lead His people, make errors?

I also remember a case where a man called by God, decided the John Mark was not worthy or trustworthy enough to go with him on a mission trip. Another man called by God disagreed with him.  The argument became so bad they broke up thier ministry and went seperate ways.

Which one was right? The leader and apostle Paul or Barnabas?

In Col 4:10-11 Paul says that John Mark was a comfort to him and that the Collosians should recieve him. And that he is one of the few the Paul says “ these alone are my fellow workers unto the Kingdom of God”

It seems that somewhere between Paul arguing with Barnabas, and splitting thier ministry, he has changed his mind about John Mark. It appears he was wrong.

My final question is, are you building the church?

John MacArthur was asked if he always desuired to build a big chruch? He told the interviewer that he had not desire to build a church.  He did not want to compete with Jesus.  Since Jesus said He would build His church.

It’s amazing that a Pastor that did not focus on building a big church, has a big church.  It almost appears one can just obey God, preach His word, equip the saints to reach the lost and the church will grow.  I guess though if you do it that way you can;t take credit for it, and put it on your resume for the next church you want to pastor.