Wendi:

With all due respect back at ya ...

But most abortions are not even closely related to the absurd one in a million scneario you point out.  Stats in the USA 2 million abortions per year.  Russia 10-20 million per year.  China 50-100 million per year.  It is used as birth control.  Jesus would forgive then say “sin no more.” He would not explain it away.

Jesus also said if your eyes causes you to sin that you’re better off without the eye then to burn in hell.  So let’s at least get as nuanced a picture of Jesus as you would have us have on abortion.

But lets for the sake of this discussion say we have that rarer case where someone was raped and now carrying a child.  R U saying that abortion is even a possible avenue you would counsel her towards as one potential solution?

Wendi:

I realize that our conversation has diverged in this thread slightly from the original purpose of the story, but your last post was so interesting that it gave me a few thoughts.  I am putting these here in the hope of understanding from where you are coming.

“I just got back from Swaziland where the Aids/HIV rate is the highest in the world.  Even though the crisis would turn around immediately if people would simply stop having multiple sex partners – to offer this as the one and only answer would be completely ‘unbiblical.’”

What is the “biblical” answer to solving this problem?  Does the answer endorse or condone the practice of sin?  If so, why would that be right?

“We could tell a young woman that considering an abortion that it is murder, plain and simple.  Or we could acknowledge that she is the daughter of a prostitute, drug using mother who has had several abortions herself; that she is 22 and didn’t complete 8th grade; that she grew up in 5 different foster homes and has lived on the street herself since she was 15.”

It is truly horrible that that woman has had such a life.  Are you saying, in this instance, that due to her environment and history, that it is okay to have an abortion due to these circumstances?

“BTW – it is interesting that we never get to know ‘the end of the story’ whenever Jesus rescued someone from their sin.  Wonder why? “

I would say that while we never see the end of the story, in most cases we are given a complete enough picture of what they did.  The rich young ruler, for instance, walked away in sorrow when Jesus asked him to give up his wealth.  In contrast, we have Mary Magdalene washing His feet with her hair and tears.  Only one of the healed ten lepers stopped and turned around to praise Jesus.  God gave us enough information in the Bible to understand what, “Go and sin no more,” meant, even if we don’t have all of the details through the end of the person’s life.

--
CS

My goodness, Dave Z,
I just have a different perspective and understanding of what Warren did; I voice it, and now am called a “bash[er].”

It is truely sad that the tolerant are now calling those who disagree with them bashers. Or maybe you are one that doesn’t mind that I may disagree with Warren, but I don’t say and state my opinion with enough sensitivity?

I guess that is kinda like the famous smiling preacher calling sin a mistake instead of sin, cause he doesn’t want to offend.

Lack of civility, I don’t think so. Radical Muslims who don’t like what someone says displays a lack of civility---ask Salomin Rushdie----or maybe some of the guys who have lost their heads. Now that is a lack of civility.

Thanks for bashing my opinion and how I state it.

I think the forum was OK, the candidates are both politicians and they both answered about like politicians.  I didn’t really learn anything new, both candidates have positives and negatives.  It was nice that they kept it civil.

Civil, as opposed to some of the comments here.  Some people just can’t seem to pass up an opportunity to take shots at other Christians.  Me included.  :-(

As for how the discussion has devolved, I’ve always found it disturbing how some people claim that the are no nuances or any factors to consider in the abortion question, that it’s black and white always wrong and should be illegal.

The fact is there are nuances and considerations; the age of the girl/woman, incest, rape, the health and life of the mother-to-be.  I’ve seen several different assessments of when life begins based on different scriptures; from at conception, first heartbeat, presence of brain activity, fetal viability, at birth, to not until the baby’s first breath.  Who’s right?

If we make abortion illegal based on Christian morals and bible scripture should that law apply to non-christians?  Is it right that in many Islamic countries Muslims apply Shariyah law to non-muslims when it is based solely on their interpretation of their holy writings?

I don’t know if it’s that some people really don’t understand that there are factors and considerations that cause some women to consider and choose abortion, or if they just don’t care.  I fear that for many it is just that they don’t care; not about the reasons, not about the circumstances, and not about the women.

Phil, if you’re really interested, research it for yourself. Google is great.
This isn’t about abortion, it’s about Warren and the candidates.

What if we spent as much time and energy into living faithful lives as we do bickering and playing kingmaker?

Leonard,
I asked you the question because one of your defenses for the forum was that it was about information. I just wondered if you learned anything new?

I am truely sorry that I come across as combative. I real am. But if I believe something is a “disgrace,” I just don’t know what other word to use. I just checked the thesaurus and found other words: Shame, dishonor, scandal, etc; which one of those words would you suggest I use?? I am not being facetious; I am serious. I suppose the other option is not to post anything.

My lord man, if I had a problem with people disagreeing with me, I as a Church of Christ “Christian,” pastor would run out the Baptists and Pentecostals in the church I pastor.

Leonard, my biggest problem with the RW forum is that weak and new Christians tuned in and heard Obama give his answers and did not hear Warren, a Christian pastor, with the forum being held in a Christian church challenge Obama’s points, and then become confused because he let it go. They very well could take his silence for affirmation for Obama’s points. ---------That is a very possible outcome for some. My goodness, look at the confusion and differences right on this small forum.

Enough; I don’t want to come off a being too defensive or combative--I am just stating my thoughts and opinions.
fishon

Wow, I am so discouraged reading these comments.  Are most evangelicals really going to make this decision based on abortion only?  (And by the way, Phil, show me the scripture that answers the question about when life begins....) I am pro-life and it saddens me that this position is not better understood in our country, but after the last seven-plus years, I am further saddened that voters who follow Jesus would not be equally as concerned about continuing a war that was begun under false pretenses, about electing a president who personifies evil as “them” and pursues evil only militarily(!), and would not see through the smokescreen of telling voters exactly what they want to hear, in short, simple phrases, when the other candidate took his time and gave thoughtful answers.  I’m really saddened by all this commentary.

Wendi:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  And I know how the Olympics can keep me awake and wired, too, like watching Phelp’s eighth a few nights back.

The answer you gave for poor Nomsa’s condition is exactly where I would have gone, too, with 1 Corinthians 7.  And that is unfortunate that the social climate there causes such problems.  That is why the Gospel should be preached wherever we go.

I didn’t see the answer to my question about abortion, so forgive me if I missed it, but could you please provide me with your insights about my query?

Concerning the, “rest of the story,” subject…

“Certainly she was repentant and understood, as Jesus said, that she was forgiven much.  But did she leave that room and walk away from her life of sin?  Go get a job at the local Walmart?  Become accepted by society and find a good man?  Really now? You cannot possibly believe, knowing what I’m sure you know about the culture of first century Israel, that she was able to leave Simon’s dinner party and begin a wonderful new life.”

I think that this underlines a great problem in modern-day Christianity--the notion that because someone becomes a Christian that that will give them a wonderful new life.  If by, “wonderful,” you mean, “a life of ease and comfort,” then, no.  If by, “wonderful,” you mean, “one where there is reassurance through Jesus Christ’s atoning work on the cross,” then, yes.

But to most people who identify themselves as Christian in America, they look to the fruits of the Spirit as the reason to come to the faith itself.  This is why preachers like Joel Osteen have such huge followings.  And this sets up false expectations for the faith.

I sincerely believe that those who came to Christ in repentance, such as Mary Magdalene, were repentant for the remainder of their lives, and that the rest of the story didn’t show divergence or wasn’t important enough because God did not include it.  As opposed to the rich young ruler who walked away in sorrow, who I doubt came to repentance.  Then again, I am totally proud to say that I could be completely wrong on both sides of this.

--
CS

Wendi:

Nothing I’ve said or meant to say would deny that everyone has a “circumstance” ... even the overwhelming majority of abortion receipients who use them as means of birth control.

That said, there is NO circumstance which can justify the killing of almost 1,000,000,000 (that’s billion!) babies in the past 40 years alone, of which over 90% were due to birth control (either personal decision or government controls.)

Now if you want to empathize with those who have unfortunate situations I am appreciative.  However, I believe that your stance basically excuses the killing of 1 billion innocent babies. 

Even worse, and what I didn’t like about Obama’s response, is that by focusing on ladies circumstances rather than the actual murder of babies, you elevate the circumstance of poverty, rape, emotional stress, et. al over the plight of the defenseless baby.  That’s my opinion and I apologize if you think that it’s too harsh.

I’m dismayed by your passionate plea to consider ladies circumstances without any plea to defend the over 900,000,000 babies that were killed solely because they weren’t wanted ... period.  And it had nothing to do with rape, adultery, or incest.  My Lord who is speaking up for them?  At least on this board ... you’re not.

I am the first person to claim that politicians believe that the only thing that matter to Christians is Abortion and Homosexuality and that’s a shame.  But when Christians cannot agree that Abortion is Murder ... regardless of the circumstance ... then the communities and nations where God’s body is placed will pay the tab.

When we speak to un-believers of course we should be nuanced.  When Obama speaks to Christians at a church then he needed to state when life exists (in his opinion.)

When Daniel states that scripture can be interpreted that life begins at 7 possible stages and I ask him to enlighten me on those passages I get “if you’re really interested look them up yourself!” Ugh ... no ... you stated something that scripture said that it does not say so I cannot look up what doesn’t exist.

I really hate politics but I understand Obama and McCain being inconsistent and sometimes incoherent ... that’s what those who enter that arena do.

On the other hand it’s truly sad that those who profess faith in Jesus and believe that God’s Word is infallible exhibit the same lack of unity, consistency, and coherence that politicians display.

Oh well .... I’ve said all I can say for this blog.  You’ve got my personal email here if you want to contact me.

I appreciate the nuanced conversation now happening here on the issue of abortion.  What troubles me about the comments I have heard about the forum is that the issue of abortion seems to have become a kind of shortcut for people - a way to avoid the hard work of thinking, reflecting and evaluating the difficult choices before us as voters.  No candidate will be perfect, holy or righteous enough for us - as participants in a civil discourse with people who aren’t believers, we are required as members of the kingdom of God to represent righteousness as voters.  The problem is that we’d rather think that if a candidate says the “right” thing about abortion, we know all about him.  The truth is much murkier.  Many candidates have gone on to be president but little has changed about abortion; at the same time, much has been done - even in the name of Christ - by these same officeholders that is shameful.  Those outside the church can see that clear as day, and when we are lazy and look for that one right answer to the abortion question and allow that to be the filter for who we vote for, we confirm their opinion that we aren’t righteous at all, but rather self-righteous.  And under those circumstances, I’m not sure they’re wrong.  Doesn’t that make us, then, just like the Pharisees that Jesus called whitewashed sepulchres? 
I know how many babies have died and that is a grievous sin, but it is NOTTHE ONLY ONE.  Will we hold officeholders and party powerbrokers responsible for the other ones, too?  Will we take up the solemn responsibility of voting after doing real critical thinking, reflection, homework and prayer?  or will we just let “the right answer” to the abortion question decide for us?

Sgillesp,
I think you might be misunderstanding some people here.  First because something is important does not mean it is the only grid.  Abortion is hugely important to me, but so is gun control… I am against it.  so are taxes, so is the handling of war, marriage, education and how we handle the environment, the way we deal with sickness and disease, health care, and much more but that is not what this covnersation is about. 

This conversation is about abortion based upon Obama’s “above my pay grade answer” not because all the people here are only one issue people who are “lazy” and looking for the right answer. 

About several issues we would probably disagree but to assume we do so because of a “short-cut” or lazy” approach, not wanting to do the much harder work of thinking… Well that is just silly. 

If Obama said he was pro-life, this would be more consistent with his faith leanings but then he could not get elected by the Dem’s since they are also one trick ponys. 

To your point about the ineffectiveness of pro-life presidents.  I think you are mostly correct, except for partial birth abortions and the appointing of Justices. 

The issue of the war is for another time.

Phil –

No, you haven’t called me a flaming liberal or a phony Christian or a sinner going to hell.  I apologize if my dialogue with you seemed to peg you as a non-loving, radical Pharisee.  I really don’t see you that way. 

Reading this site regularly, sometimes it is easy to get mixed up between threads, especially when several in the same week wander to the issue of abortion or some other political hot topic for evangelicals.  I read through all 72 posts on this thread.  These are the comments I’ve reacted to:

“Our pretzel logic in killing millions of innocent children comes from ignoring simple medical facts”

“Why would you then even consider a candidate who would be in favor of abortion?”

“Notice, however, that he [Obama] never references his favorite verse when “the least of these” is referring to unborn babies.”

And you said: “Either it’s killing a person or it’s not.  Period.  If it is then we should stop the practice immediately and if it’s not then let us continue with the law as it stands on the books.”

This is the comment that prompted me to write about the multifaceted circumstances that influence people’s decisions.  You make it sound so simple, so black and white, and I think it is anything but.

Then in your last reply to me you say: “Jesus would have loved them BUT NEVER WOULD HAVE COUNSELED THEM THAT IT WAS OK TO ABORT THE BABY.”

What did I ever say that would lead you to believe I would personal counsel a person that it is okay to get an abortion?  Of course I would not.  But we are not talking about how we counsel a pregnant girl if the Holy Spirit opens the door to a conversation.  We are talking about making laws for all Americans, whose constitution insures, if they so choose, they have the unalienable right NOT to submit to the authority of scripture. 

Phil, I have read so many comments here, and heard so much from American Christians out there that seems to imply (and sometimes say outright) that if I’d ever consider a candidate who is not against abortion and the gay/lesbian agenda, my Christianity is actually in question.  I realize that you didn’t say that, but you have to admit to reading that tone from many who post here.  Fact is, I do believe abortion is wrong, and I am considering Obama, and though it may be difficult to believe, I’m a pretty theologically conservative Christ follower.  Repealing R v Wade is not my soapbox.  There are other issues that rile me up (guess you’ve figured out what those are).  At the end of the day, informed by our faith and our biblical worldview, our vote will be guided by the candidate’s position on what matters most to each of us, and that will not be the same for every Christian in America.  That needs to be okay.

Wendi

Phil, I did not say dependency on the age of the mother was in scripture.  As for the others I said I’ve seen arguments that cited scriptures. Some of the scriptures I’ve seen used are below:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood and Leviticus 17:14 …for the life of all flesh is its blood.  (This would seem to indicate that life begins, not at conception, but at the point that blood begins to form or flow.)
Psalm 22:10 I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born. (This scripture seems to indicate life begins at birth.)

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person. (This seems to indicate life begins with first breath.)

Acts 17:25 He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need. (Does this indicate life begins with first breath?)

Luke 1:44 When I heard your greeting, the baby in my womb jumped for joy. (Seems to indicate a baby in the womb is a person if he/she can feel joy).

Many argue that life begins at the moment of conception and an embryo is a person at that moment.  However, questions have been raised about that line of thinking as we are now discovering that an embryo can divide into two separate persons up until about 14 days after conception

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m simply saying that I don’t think it is as cut and dry as you seem to think it is.  You can continue to argue that abortion is wrong and should be illegal, but that will continue to be an argument and not a conversation.  According to a report by the Guttmacher Institute (a pro-choice research group) the abortion rate in the U.S. has been dropping since about 1990 and the areas where it is dropping the most are the areas where pro-life forces have shifted their focus from simply making it illegal to combating the underlying causes and reasons that some women choose abortion. 

Abortion is a topic over which Christians are bitterly divided. Many Christians, hearing good arguments from both sides, are paralyzed by conflicting beliefs. Many other Christians come to a position of such certainty about the issue that they can no longer engage in constructive dialog with the other side. Yet, despite these difficulties, talk about it we must. And if we are to discuss it in a way that honors the weightier matters of the law, “justice, mercy, and faith” (Matt. 23:23) we must be willing to hear all sides of the issue with open ears and humility.

And as for Obama’s answer that he’s not sure exactly when life begins (that’s above my pay grade) I’m OK with that, as long as it’s something he does think about when making decisions.  What disturbs me is when McCain says he’s a Christian but that his faith does not influence his policies or decisions. How can you BE a Christ follower and it NOT affect your decision making process?