I think Peter’s comments are very unfair.  There was nothing wrong with our tones, Christopher or I have said nothing to deserve an invitation to leave this forum It makes me wonder why an opposing viewpoint is seen as so threatening?  Why the sensitivity?

Let’s remember the focus of this debate is the 10 observations that Todd considers for churches who “get it.” My contention was that evangelism did not make the list of the 10.  Todd wrote me back and pointed out that he mentioned that 6 out of 10 had conversions of 250 or more in a year.  But I must still stand on the fact that Christianity in America today as a whole does not focus on evangelism.  I would be willing to bet that those 250 of which he speaks were in the church and not as a direct result of “street evangelism”..that is- taking the Gospel message outside the four walls of the church.

I believe based on conversations with professing Christians that most church-goers abdicate the responsiblility of evangelism to the pastor.  It was put to me this way...unbelievers are as interested in “visiting” a church as criminals are in visiting the jail.  Oh, we can refinish the floors and repaint the walls and even invite a cool inmate band to perform but the criminals will still avoid “visiting” the jail.  We must go out and apprehend them with the Gospel.  We must take the truth to them.  If we wait for them to show up at our church, the chances are they will die before that happens and what becomes of their soul without Jesus?  Are we willing to stand on the wall as a watchman and not sound the trumpet of impending danger?  Are we willing to give an account to the Him who suffered in our place of the blood of those we apathetically decided not to warn?

All the other “stuff” that American Christianity has involved itself in is of little value if it does not preach the Gospel to the lost.  Remember, it is the sheep who have the lambs...not the shepherd.

HAPPY EASTER!

Just checking my email before I go off to celebrate the glorious resurrection of our Savior!D

Will,

I’d be willing to bet I’m not the only one who found issue with your tone. Take that for what it’s worth. As far as being “invited to leave the forum”, I tried, successfully I think, to as gently as possibly say what it is we generally discuss here and that if that’s not what you want to discuss, this isn’t the forum for you. I stand by that statement, I’ll bet Todd would echo it, as would a lot of other folks here.

Christopher,

You write “I would be willing to bet that those 250 of which he speaks were in the church and not as a direct result of “street evangelism”..that is- taking the Gospel message outside the four walls of the church.” So what! I doubt anybody who is not a believer yet will visit a church unless that church has done some kind of service or work in the community, either the individuals or the group. So in a sense, that IS street evangelism, although I’m guessing not by your definition.

I sense from your posts that your definition of evangelism stops at street evangelism. My definition often stops shy of that. What I try to do is make real meaningful friendships with people in the community so that they just migh want to know more about why I care. I don’t hide, nor do I downplay what I believe, but my style is definitely not to go up to a perfect stranger and “witness”. Under a lot of circumstances, there’s nothing wrong with that, although the Bible does actually tell us to BE witnesses…

My church put on a great drama on Good Friday about the apostles and what they went through following Christ. We promoted it throughout the community. We had a LOT of visitors, no doubt some who are not believers yet. Many of them will be back for Easter in just a couple hours, visiting a church the one time a year that they actually go to church. Some of those will perhaps embrace Christ for the first time. We do “go and tell” but we also invite people to “come and see”. That is also “going to the people” and its why 12 years ago we planted this church in this community and have grown to be very large through a LOT of conversion growth. Sure, some have come on board as “transfer growth” but we see lives changed for Christ all the time, despite the fact that we don’t stress the kind of street evangelism that I’m concerned you see as the only real valid way to evangelize.

Most churches do indeed abdicate their responsibility for evangelism to the pastor as you say. I agree wholeheartedly. I’ll bet most of the churches that “get it” don’t, though. We don’t…

Blessings!
Peter

Will,

I believe what Peter is saying is that, of course, there will be times that we disagree.  But to balance that out, you need to know that MMI is a place where we discuss mostly innovative churches.  The churches I placed on my list are good examples of the types of churches that most of us are either from, or great examples of the types of churches that we’d like to become.  You don’t agree, and that’s fine.  You have every right to disagree and we give flexibility here for you to express your thoughts as well.

However, that doesn’t mean that we enjoy constantly defending our position against one or two nay-sayers.  Once in a while is fine; (and if you read our archives, you’ll find that we have been MORE than gracious to people like you who disagree) but the constant, relentless combative nature is not what this forum is about. 

If you’ll notice, the final paragraph of my post states that these churches aren’t perfect.  They don’t claim to be, and neither do we.  I also set up to post to share observations, and to discuss them; but not to argue about them.

When it comes right down to it; I do agree with Peter.  Take some time and read around here Will and Christopher.  If you find that much of what we say here resonates with you; then, by all means, stick around.  However, if you find that much of what we discuss here is disagreeble to you; and all you want to do is argue or convert us to your way of thinking; then please move on… because we simply won’t take up our time fighting with you.

By this time, I think you both have made your points (as have those who have responded).  You’ve really hijacked our post.  If anyone wants to get back to the real discussion of similarities of these churches who “get it”, then let’s proceed.  If you just want to bash churches like this; then please move on.

That’s my take on the whole situation…

Thanks… Happy Easter all!

Todd

A month ago we hung a vinyl banner in our church and asked people to write the names of friends and loved ones they wanted to bring to Easter Services.  Today, in a standing room only service, one of my friends pointed to the vinyl banner and then to the two seats next to him.  These two seats were occupied with his buddies, whose names he has also written on the banner weeks earlier.  As he wrote those names on the banner he committed to pray and share Christ with these guys.  One family told me their goal was to fill a row with people they loved.  They did.  Another buddy was responsible for 19 people at church this morning, a couple of which invited Christ into their hearts.  No it is not street evangelism but it is evangelism.