While this discussion is fascinating, I gotta go w/ Journey Girl’s last post.  All of our theological debate and discussion accomplishes little when I think of the many people who work hard every day to bring God’s love to people who so desperately need it.  This challenges me to quit thinking so much about inerrancy and all the other big words in the Christian glossary and just do something!  Again, theological debate fascinates me and there are some great thoughts expressed on both sides of the argument.  I just think sometimes we scare off people who need Christ because of this stuff.

Quick note to Daniel:

Yes, “divine dictation” is simplistic.  God inspired the writers, not dictated to them.  We see that in the individual writing styles that come through.  I like the way Ryrie put it - “God superintended the human authors of the Bible so that they composed and recorded without error His message in the words of their original writings.” So God supervised the process to ensure the proper outcome, yet the individual writers composed the text.  Some folks like the term “infallible” instead of “inerrant.” Slight difference.

Also, I don’t think God is surprised or frustrated with anything that happens.  Just disappointed.  Or pleased.

And thanks for pointing out that there is nothing in the article that says the pastor gets drunk. 

To Julie - Welcome to the discussion.  It’s always thought provoking. 

I do not believe God makes mistakes.  God never says “Oops.” Or “D’oh!” For example, he knew full well that mankind would fall in the Garden, and had the plan of redemption all figured out and ready to go before that hapened.  He gave us free will, knowing we would abuse it, but also knowing that some of us would freely choose to love Him, and that I believe is the purpose. 

So, our tendency to err is not part of the image of God that remains in us.  We are a fallen race - we are not as we were originally created.

Solomon is an example to us - no matter what we have been given, spiritually or materialistically, we need to intentionally keep our focus on God.  We are easily distracted. 

And finally, other than maybe a few “KJV only” types, no one believes that our translations are error-free.  That’s probably why there are so many of them.  Still, as I originally posted, the power, authority and sufficiency remain, regardless of the very minor problems.  It’s actually amazing and, in my opinion, miraculous, that the errors in modern translations are as minor as they are.  Over thousands and thousands of years, the actual words of scripture are not in doubt.  Some folks debate over other issues, but there is great confidence that we know to a very high degree exactly what the original manuscripts said.  No significant doctrines are in question, except for how we interpret them.  There’s the tricky part. 

Dave

Posted by Journey Girl
Thursday, July 20, 2006 at 9:09 AM
Just a thought - in the time that you have all debated inerrancy, salvation as a process, and the fact that BeHim and others think it their job to judge other followers of Christ - I wonder how many games of poker have been played, bottles of beer drank, and lives impacted for Christ?

JG. Thanks for pointing out our inconsistancies where we are not evangelizing the worldly crowd and some others (like you, I suppose are out beating the streets everyday inviting your friends and strangers) into the relationship that makes all the difference in their eternal salvation. Thanks for giving me the approval to go against the Word of God and imbibe some booze while I gamble my Saviour’ gifts away and impact others lives for Christ.

Have a super day and remember to put Jesus first in everything you do and say. J

Thanks Rev J.

I was discussing with my Bro-n-law the other day about discipleship, which I suppose is probably counted as a waste of time to many as well.

Anyway we were talking about those of us in the church to be duplicating ourselves as we ought to. Yyet the problem being, is many are duplicating themseves alright, but they have no foundation, and no not what they even believe or ought to believe! So here we have people out trying to duplicate themselves, who can’t even say if Jesus is the only way to heaven!  Let’s get first things first, which is most definately not a waste of time.

Rev / Pastor Andre -

I can’t speak for Journey Girl, but the reason I resonated with her post and agreed with it was not to accuse you of NOT evangelizing, but to express my opinion that what this guy spends his time doing is much more effective in “kingdom building” (which might or might not be evangelism) than Christians spending time arguing with one another.  It’s not that I don’t care about inerrancy or the doctrine of substitution atonement, but I am VERY SURE that lost and broken people Pastor Shuman is roughing it up with don’t care one little bit.  I am admonished by him, because I am not (as you suppose), “beating the streets every day inviting friends and strangers,” at least not nearly as much as I might be.

And did you mean to criticize him or us with your statement about not evangelizing the “worldly crowd”?  Who else needs evangelizing?  The church crowd?  Since Jesus went after the “worldly crowd” I think I will too.

Pastor Shuman said: But I don’t think they [most Christians] believe Jesus’ way of life is a better way of life in the here and now.

I don’t know what most Christians believe, but do think the collective actions of evangelical Christians in North America gives evidence that they don’t live as if they believe Jesus’ way of life was better here and now, otherwise they (we) would be roughing it up with the “worldly crowd” rather than spending most of our discretionary time with other Christians.  Admittedly we rough it up with the worldly 50+ hours per week in our jobs.  We don’t have any choice here so we shouldn’t give ourselves much credit.  The minute our time is our own, we run to the safety and security of those just like us.  Pastor Shuman doesn’t think this pattern looks like Jesus . . . and neither do I.

Wendi

Alcohol a gift from God...no.  It first appears in the Bible with Noah falling down drunk.  Alcohol has some uses but man has perverted it.  I used to be a beer drinking Christian and I know the many times I started off with “I will only have one beer only to have my wife drive me home....” I have been clean and sober since August 8, 1985.  Maybe this pastor has better self control than I ever did but that is rare. 

We can´t judge one another?  Last time I read some of Paul´s and John´s letters, they were naming names and telling churches to avoid certain individuals.  We look at the fruit.

I stopped fussing over the finer points about the Bible years ago.  I believe, try to live it, apply it, and then preach it.  Right now I am in an internet cafe in Apizaco, Mexico.  My church has sent four of us to the front lines ... and loving it (23 people discipled and come to Christ!).

Put me in the “innerant” camp.

If you can’t believe the Bible is entirely accurate, how can you know what parts ARE accurate? How do you know that Jesus is really God? How do you know His name was even Jesus? If one piece is wrong, we have to doubt the whole thing.

And the argument about not being able to trust that we’ve accurately represented the original documents is hooey, frankly. I stood two weeks ago in the Shrine of the Book Museum in Jerusalem and looked at the Dead Sea Scrolls Exhibit. They have almost the entire scroll of Isaiah, and it reads exactly the same as my Hebrew Bible today. I stood there and read Isaiah 53, and it said the same thing in Qumran that it says today.

As far as being able to trust your English Bible, you can. The various translations have been done by scholars who understand the language in which the Bible was written. They made interpretive decisions when it came to words, yes, but those are very well documented and critiqued by other scholars who know the language.

God doesn’t make mistakes. None. People (Adam, Noah, etc...) make mistakes. God allows people to make those mistakes, and redeems us anyway. 

Finally, Journeygirl, while I appreciate the thinking behind your post - I wonder which Jesus this pastor is leading his people to? It certainly can’t be the Jesus of the Bible, because he doesn’t believe in the Bible. How does he know that Jesus really said “Love your neighbor?” Maybe Jesus really said “Love judging your neighbor,” but the writers of scripture changed His words to take the edge off?

You see, when you through out the trustworthiness of God’s revelation about Jesus, you forfeit the ability to say anything concerning Who Jesus was at all.

Chris,

Just for clarification, the Dead Sea Scrolls are indeed much closer to the original manuscripts, but still are dated between 600 and 800 years from the latest believed date of any original manuscript.  There are no original manuscripts in existence of either the NT or Hebrew Cannon.  There are multiple readings or copies of the ancient manuscripts from which our bible has been assembled and there are many differences between the various readings.  These are understood to be mistakes made by the scribes who copied the manuscripts for circulation and preservation.  Thus . . . any denomination whose doctrinal statement affirms inerrancy claims that the bible is without error as it was penned by its original authors – and no one knows exactly, word for word what these authors penned because their work simply doesn’t exist. 

For many of us this is not a problem.  We can have faith in the inerrancy of the originally written words, believing that the Holy Spirit inspired these words just as we believe through faith in the miraculous works of God throughout history recorded therein.

But, it is possible to NOT land in the inerrancy camp and still believe in the bible and Jesus of the bible (your critique of Pastor Shuman).  People on both sides of this and other issues can love Jesus and point people to God through Him.  The inerrancy issue is completely irrelevant to most of humanity that has found its way to God for centuries (and in many parts of the world even today) without ever having a bible.  I believe that it’s these kinds of arguments which caused him to feel we are failing to live the kind of life Jesus showed us (through the words he reads about Jesus which are recorded in the bible BTW).  I think he right.

Wendi

"What I believe you’re left with is a mail-order Jesus, who is seen only in light of the things we want to believe about Him (I mean that with the most respect possible). If you believe the Bible is errant, it’s up to you to decide which parts are error and which parts are authentic. Your guess is as good as mine”.

Precisely Chris.  I believe that’s no accident in today’s Cultural Christianity, it allows everyone and anyone to interperet the Bible on “their” terms.  Here we have a Pastor no less, that won’t or can’t even take a stand that the Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven.

I heard a missionary from South America speaking and he commented how missionaries from outside the U.S. are looking in at our Christianity in disbelief.  We have people out there giving their lives for taking a stand on “Jesus being the only way” and Christians and even worse prominent Pastors here won’t even stand on that most fundemental fact and belief of the Christian faith.

You know, folks, lots of people, including most, if not all of those to whom the apostles ministered, believed in Jesus for decades before there was a collection of (NT) scripture.  My faith is built on a relationship with a living Jesus, not just a guy in a book. This is not to diminish the Bible, but to put the priority where it should be - on Jesus.  I can already hear you saying “How can you know what to believe if you don’t base it on scripture?” While much of our knowledge comes from scripture (and I’ll quote it frequently to prove it) it is not our only source of truth and instruction - don’t forget the Holy Spirit!  See John 14:26 - the Spirit will teach us all things and remind us of what Jesus said.  The Spirit will guide us into all truth - John 16:13.  The Holy Spirit is what makes the Bible come to life.  Lots of people read the Bible without it having an impact on their lives, but the Spirit brings life!  2 Cor 3:6

Some of you sound like your faith is based solely on the Bible, and not a relationship with a holy, living God, who interacts with believers on a daily basis, encouraging, convicting of sin, answering prayer, guiding decisions, protecting, strengthening… the list goes on and on.  Y’all say “If you can’t trust the Bible, how can you believe in Jesus?” I believe in Him because I know Him.  He changed my life and I have commited myself into His care and service - I am nothing but a servant, but I am a servant of the Lord! 

You write as if your faith would crash to the ground without scripture.  I consider that sad.  The first generation or two of Christians did not have NT scripture.  I think we can safely assume that most early Gentile believers were totally unfamilier with Jewish scripture, but they were saved and filled with the Spirit anyway!  Throughout most of Church history, plain, ordinary Christians did not have scripture, and probably couldn’t have read it anyway.  Was their faith in vain?  Were only the educated church leaders, those who could read and analyse Romans, really saved?  Everyone else was lost because the Bible was not available to them?

As much as I value the Bible and submit to it’s authority, it’s authority is not in itself, but in the author (author - authority… get it?) - God Himself, and that’s where my faith lies.  The Bible illuminates my faith as the sun illuminates our world, but our world exists with or without the sun shining on it, as Jesus exists and the Holy Spirit indwells Christians whether or not they have the Bible. 

It’s JESUS!  And God revealed in Him

Dave

Wendi wrote:
“You have been respectful in your argument, except (IMO) when you made the statement I challenged above.”

My sincere apologies if my comments came across as disrespectful. I certainly don’t mean them that way. I guess my frankness is a result of the fact that I don’t want to hijack Todd’s comment thread to type a complete dissertation on the matter! For that reason, I limited my explanation, and probably shouldn’t have in this case.

Here’s my point: I completely understand that there are God-loving people out there who don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture. I’m not doubting their devotion to God, or the fervor with which they seek Truth.

What I _am_ hoping to do is follow the inerrancy logic to its natural end. What I typically hear from my friends who don’t hold to inerrancy, are people who want to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they believe are accurate and which ones have been changed/lost. Generally, they conclude that the “non-offensive” passages (ie “Love your neighbor,") are accurate where the “offensive” passages (ie “I am the Way, Truth Life...") are inaccurate. We end up picking and choosing what parts of the Bible we _like_ and decide those are true.

If the Bible is not inerrant, it seems to me that we’re standing on shaky ground. If we can’t believe that John 14:6 is true, how can we be sure that John 1:14 is true? How can we believe _anything_ about the life of Jesus as absolutely true? Once one domino falls, how can we be sure that all the others don’t go with it? What is our source of authority concerning Jesus if the Bible can’t be completely trusted?

That’s my concern with the pastor listed above. How can he say he is “leading people to Jesus?” On what authority does he speak about Jesus? How does he know what he believes about Jesus is true?

It’s the whole argument we give our kids. If my kid tells me a whole string of things, and I find out one of them is a lie, how can I trust him on the others? The same with the Bible. If I find out part of the Bible is false, how can I trust the rest?

Dave, I really appreciate your post, but fail to see how the fact that you know Jesus is any logical argument for His existence and authority at all. My best friend from high school “knows Mohammed” and Mohammed has completely changed his life. Experience has to be validated. What do we look at to know our experience reveals the true God?

Amen Chris.  Thanks for the encouragement.