Thanks, BeHim… but I tried to be very careful to explain that I wasn’t talking about sales here… that’s why I said that we’d apply some of what Seth said to new things that we start in ministry.

Of course, there are always other things to look at other than numbers and money in any ministry start-up.  What I hoped to do was to get a conversation going on how these decisions are made.  How do you know when something is successful (or read “being used of God") in your church?  How do you know when something is a drain (not just on finances) in your church and needs to be changed or dropped altogether.  These are the decisions and the processes that fascinate me.

Todd

Thanks, Jim… and I think you do make a great point… when God tells you to do something (and you’re confident about that), then the curve really takes on less importance since you know what the end result should be.

I gotta be honest… I am so bewildered by how the Church has come to see itself as a corporate structure. I am frightened by this, and it is simply a long way from what God is calling us to do. To be sure, looking at statistics and bell-curve analyisis has a place in running a church… but it should *not* be a determining factor in what is effective.

Jesus only healed one person at the pool iof Bethsaida… was this an unsuccesful ministry since many others continued in afflictions? Certainly not! Jesus was simply about His Father’s business, not a corporate model of success.

Please note John 5:19, and see that we are to press into God in much prayer to determine what is succesful… not corporate strategies and models.

Are 500 being discipled?  Can you effectively/efficiently disciple 500 people at one time?  For how long?

Discipleship is not the latest Max Lucado book and facilitate questions.

Discipleship is one on one q&a;, hanging out, eating dinner together, traveling together, etc.

We’ve missed the boat on discipleship and have replaced it with “studies” thinking if we skip all the hum drum stuff, we’ll make more disciples faster (like the marketing solution:  if you give people more and more for less and less to more and more people you’ll be highly successful - mcdonalds business philosophy).

I know Todd doesn’t want to go here but I wanted to answer a couple of the statements.

So let me get back to what Todd asked:
How do you know when something is successful (or read “being used of God") in your church? How do you know when something is a drain (not just on finances) in your church and needs to be changed or dropped altogether. These are the decisions and the processes that fascinate me.

I think there was a good answer to that earlier.  I think you gauge what you’re doing is from God or not BEFORE you start.  I was taught that if you feel God wants you to teach a Genesis or Romans or Psalms or (fill in the blank) study then step out and do it.  Don’t gauge the success on how many people attend but rather how much they are growing and BECAUSE you felt called of God to do it, if no one shows up, do it anyway, maybe God wants to teach you first.

I think success in ministry is gauged on whether or not the people have grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (do they know more about God and His Grace than they did when they started)?  It doesn’t matter if it’s 1 or 100.  If it is 1, who knows what that 1 might accomplish (like Paul) but if we cancel the class/course/instruction because only 1 enrolled, then imagine the boat missed/fruit lost.

As far as when to drop something because it’s a “drain” in my opinion just spotlights the need to determine FIRST if God wants you to do it.

Maybe a type of litmus test with a number of questions is in order.  Here’s a start:

Is this what the Scriptures calls me to do?
Is the book/study I’m using to teach, Scripturally correct (if not, what areas are in question)?

Todd,

Great topic. I too am curious as to how others know when to move on or stick with the idea and see if it takes off. To be honest, I think this idea works not only for ministries but could tie in with your other posting about when to leave and when to stay at your church. I’m not sure when you posted it but, I think these two topics are related for two reasons. Number one, varying leadership styles determines how ministries will go and if they will take off. By this I mean that leadership varies in their approach to taking on new ministries within the church. I’ve been told that change needs to occur slowly but I’m not so sure that isn’t a leadership preference. Second, is the church body. How it responds to new ideas also plays a role in the success of new ministries. If the congregation is traditionally based than it’s more likely new ideas are going to struggle hugely. Before you even look at adding new minstries to the list you need to have strong leadership support for new ideas and if possible a congregation able to absorb the shock of something new. Then there is the other angle which I think really answers your question. Once the ministry is started and things are moving slow then one needs to look at wheither the ministry is practical and challenging yet not overwhelming. Second, is everyone envolved taking some ownership of its success? Are your people excited about what they are involved in? Is it fulfilling? Are you taking too much control of it which might make those around you see this ministry as “your thing” instead of God’s thing. As far as knowing an idea will be successful or a dud really is very difficult to determine. Of course you can customise to your audience’s needs and still not get off the ground. However, I try to remember when the Wright brothers built the first airplane how were they viewed and then there’s Thomas Edision who invented the light bulb. How odd that must have been when he came up with a glass bulb that produced light. Truth is, we cannot know wheither our ideas will be successful all we can do is try, plan, and refine as we go. Looking over things I’m not sure there are really bad ideas just not well planned and well exicuted ones. However if God said you should start one then you should always believe that God will put into the works what is needed for it’s success which includes preparing you for the task.

These are good questions to ask. None of us want to be “off target” when it comes to what we are doing for God. So how do we evaluate it? I think a great place to begin is, “What did God want? And then “what were the intial goals in doing the ‘new thing’.” If the goal is widescale adoption of a certain crictical mass, then realizing the market is not there to achieve crictical mass may well mean shutting it down. (Critical mass defined as enough mass to sustain a certain set of criteria) But sometimes you cannot assure critical mass on some projects. Sometimes God doesn’t command we hit the mark of critical mass.  Certain organizations will obviously require cricital mass to be around. If the goal was to start a self supporting church, then it will NEED to hit those critical mass numbers before the money/energy of the core runs out. However, if the goal is to start a clothing ministry to the poor, then the critical mass may be in the form of volunteer support or in affordable sources of clothing.  In EITHER circumstance, the question is still sustainability of the goals for which we began a certain endeavor. At this point I have to invoke the old, “where God guides, God provides” principle. It very well could be that a ministry needs to be revamped, or restructured because its not longer serving the original goals and purpose and therefore is not sustaining. (One could argue it is now outside God’s will and needs to be brought back on course.) Restructure may be necessary, or it may be time to “shut it down.” How do we know? When do we know? A lot of it depends upon the particular ministry we are describing. For the church planters I coach, I suggest monthly re-evaluation, quarterly re-evaluation and yearly re-evaluation. To ask, “Are we achieving what we believe God wanted in this?” Agreed, one person reached is worth it all. But if the goal was to produce a fully functioning, God supported community with full-time staff - and you don’t have unlimited funds, and your one convert isn’t tithing enough to cover the expenses - then you will HAVE to restructure accordingly or go bankrupt. Granted restructure may mean, getting a job and meeting with this one in Bible studies. But its still restructure.  When do you evaluate and restructure? It depends on what we are starting with in the way of goals or a calling. Perhaps this question would be better served if we started with a true to life ministry application.

If you look at curve A and curve C the difference is you do not know what curve A looked like in the time before the new ministry took off.  It looked like curve C.

That time was spent in establishing the values of a discipleship ministry.  Discipleship ministry is not a study, it is the duplication of Jesus in the life of a follower to the point he/she begins to duplicate in someone else.

As Pastors, we do not come up with all the ministry that is to be.  We raise up the disciples that God will give much of the ministry to. 

In a marriage if you want to know how your relationship is going, don’t speculate, ask your spouse, they will tell you and dispel any delusions you may have. 

In the church, ask the flock.  Are they winning spiritual battles?  Are they talking to their neighbors and investing their lives in the people God has placed in their sphere of influence?  If not, we are not going and making disciples.

Launching a successful program means we must instill those basic values and capitalize on the creativity God gives the ministry team He has called together.  If the ministry is not building bridges to the lives of unbelievers, and people are not motivated to become duplicating disciples, then it is time to consider another ministry to invest in.  That may mean bringing one ministry to a close and finding where God wants us to invest in the next. 

If this is not the mind of the leadership, then not much leading is going on and the effective future of the church is in question. 

Turning a church around takes 5-7 years of constantly instilling principle of discipleship.  There will encouraging signs along the way, but it will be hard work.  Just don’t settle for the idea that God is blessing you if your body is shrinking and dying off.  That is not the vision of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Todd:

“Thanks… let’s keep it positive and helpful; but stay off the ‘church is just like a business’ road for now.”

You can’t, Todd.  It’s impossible.

[moderator comment:  Ah… yeah we can.  Carry on.]

First, I apologize.  I do not want my “BURY IT” comment to be connected with Rick Warren.  That was wrong on my part.  The emphasis was solely mine.  (He takes enough heat without me misrepresenting him!)
I like Mike’s insight, “That time was spent in establishing the values of a discipleship ministry.” I think it’s those values, a deeper identity with Christ and a passionate vision for His purposes and His Kingdom, that must first be established in people.  That will most likely be the determining factor to a ministry’s “success,” however you choose to measure it and by whatever means you choose to implement it.  It’s the preparation that occurs before you hit the dotted “start up” line.
With enough publicity, money and energy, you can begin any ministry but it’s probably going to be short lived and each new “start up” will be more difficult than the last.  That’s when the whole business model, marketing, church thing comes into play.  It’s the difference of a spiritual foundation that’s two inches wide but a mile deep and one that’s two miles wide but only inches deep.  When the heat of time, commitment and the expected obsticals Satan is bound to throw in it’s way, begins to show, one is more likely to “dry up” and the other will remain a lasting source.
What I did get from some of the ideas Rick Warren shared was that many ministries do have a life span.  Perhaps the need is met or it’s handed off or God shifts the direction.  Whatever the case, it shouldn’t become a “sacred cow.” Identify it, recognize it and move forward.
Ben E

Thank you for another great insite!  With the help of dedicated lay people - I have establish three new churches so far.  Two are thriving and the other has been disbanded.  Have also established dozens of new groups, some are still thriving after many years, others have long been disbanded.  Others started out with a “bang” but soon fizzled.

The “curves” were vary helpful in understanding how to proceed and what to expect with another new ministry I am working on.

Thanks for being courageous enough to bring up new ideas to ponder, pray over and debate.  The Church is the most important “business” in the world because it is God’s buiness. The powerful message of the Gospel never changes - but the methods and process of getting the Good News out do change.  As good stewards we need to be even wiser than people the “busines world.”

Please continue to be a breath of fresh air for those of us who labor in God’s Kingdom. We desire to better understand how we can best use our spiritual gifts for carrying out the Great Commission of Christ.

I believe that one of the important issues in evaluation is to always be clear on “what” we are evaluating.  We are not evaluating the content of our message, but rather the mode of distribution.

Because of this, God could still be “calling” us to reach 20 somethings in our community.  The Evaluation would come that maybe a 7:00 am bible study is not the best way.  I think that to bury that attempt would not be to ditch the calling, but would be to change our marketing (sorry to some, but that it what it is) of the effort.

At Seacoast Church during the summer we often change our service times based on the fact that we are 5 minutes from the beach.  Our Saturday 4:30 service for instance takes a huge downward curve.

This does not mean that we have stopped wanting to reach people, we just know that for this season of time, 4:30 on saturday is not the best time…

Good Morning Todd,

As I read through the blog I am reminded of the fruit tree in my front yard.  Every spring there are a whole bunch of flowers.  Bees pollinate them and make honey.  Humming birds come to eat and carry away food and water for their babies.  The blossoms offer resources of life to the trees ecosystem. 

Shortly afterward, fruit appears in the middle of the blossom.  The tree however is not capable of sustaining every blossom.  The blossom, although important in spring, are a drain during the fruit maturation process.  In the natural process, as in the spiritual, the tree releases more than 50% of the blossoms.

The fruit matures through summertime, Even then, the tree knows sheds fruit not worth sustaining or that might be destructive to the higher potential fruit.  A lot of maturing fruit drops during the summer time.  If it weren’t for me picking it up, it would replenish the soil as it decayed.  In fact, Avocado trees like the soil below the tree to be covered with decaying leaves and immature fruit.  Even here, the immature fruit serves a purpose in the trees environment and health.

Finally at the transition of fall, all of God’s little creatures start consuming the perfectly ripen fruit, usually before I get a chance to do the same.  The tree completes its fruit production cycle just as the demands of its labors are greatest.  Then comes a much deserved season of rest and a brand new spring that starts the cycle all over again.

I think there are many important lessons we can learn from my fruit tree.  That ministry ebbs and flows are natural (and perhaps God ordained)… continued growth is not.  That only a few ministry starts will mature to fruit yet they play a vital role in the churches influence on its community/environment.  Like a tree, we need to decide which fruit is most likely to mature.  For some, it might be small number disciples.  Other communities might need huge ministry programs.  Both are vital in their given communities/environments.

Changing gears a bit, it is important to discern the difference between a spiritual objectives and measurand surrogates.  Few argue the priority of the discipleship continuum of the great commission; continually moving people from converts to convertors.  Because we don’t have a spirituality-o-meter, our affectivity in moving people toward the end of the continuum (spiritual maturity) is difficult to measure.  In place of a spirituality-o-meter, we use surrogates – things that can be measured that reflect what can’t be measured.  For example, because we expect mature believers have certain behaviors that benefit the church, can ask the question, how many people are involved in these ministries or dare I say, we can count attendance and use it as a surrogate to the number of people who have made the transition from being discipled to making disciples.  By using measurand surrogates, we can evaluate how certain ministries and programs are promoting the spiritual maturity of our saints without a spirituality-o-meter.

Have a great day and thanks for your continued service.