I like it!

However, I can already hear the responses of some who visit this forum, taking exception to the idea of “doing whatever it takes,” because to them it reflects a desire to water down the gospel to add to their numbers, leading people to a false salvation, etc.

I liked what he said: Lost people will act like lost people.

How many times does a lost person come to a church, in all their lostness, dressing in a way that advertises their lostness, using language that does the same, etc., and find out that while the church says, “Jesus loves sinners!” what they really mean is “Jesus might love you, but we won’t until you get your act together.”

I’ve often said to my people that you cannot expect regenerate behavior from unregenerate people.  Only the Holy Spirit can regenerate people.  Churches can’t, and unbelievers certainly can’t.

So my point in all this is that I agree with the article - let’s do what we can to reach as many as we can, focusing the essentials of the gospel rather than the hindrances of complacency or “cliqueiness.”

One other thing: he says to throw out tradition when it’s irrelevant.  I agree.  At the same time, we need to be careful that we don’t become such slaves to the “anti-tradition” mindset that we automatically accept new things without testing them against Scripture.

“I love the apostle Paul. He was all about reaching people for Christ. He was the first relevant minister after the death of Jesus. Paul said in I Corinthians 9 that he was going to be all things to all people in order that he might win some. He was willing to do whatever it takes!  I think what today’s churches lack is the discipleship method that Paul was exposed to. Although he was a man steeped in Old Testament theology from youth, he needed about twelve years after his conversion to actually go out and preach the gospel. I think too many new converts are pressured into sharing the “good news” without actually being taught how and being unaware of the cost, they falter and collapse under the pressure. Within our society where the Bible is being disregarded as outdated and judgemental, I think that new converts need to be saturated with The Word and understand exactly Who they are following. There is a distinct lack of teaching people to read the Bible for themselves and a current teaching that encourages them to just take someone else’s word of what the bible says :ie so many studies out where you just believe God’s revealed word to the teacher instead of finding out for yourself what God is saying to you.Basically what I am saying is that once you reach the lost be sure to educate them into what Christianity is and give them the skills to do that and not be dependant on teachers but rather the Word of God. We are such a literate society when it comes to everyday life and yet such an illiterate society when it comes to the Word of God! Pray for godly teachers and hungry hearts. Amen.

Amen!Hallelujah! Someone finally has it. Just do it man, and git R done. To be honest with you guys I am sick and tired of tradition. I am a Baptist/ Baptistcostal I should say and have been called.

The heck with tradition. With some of the Baptist Churches you have to form a committee form rules and regulations before you decided to buy a needy family food and such.

For instance one church my wife and I attended the pastor and everyone kept saying we need to get people to church and the pastor kept saying we are going to form a group one Sat. and go visiting.

Six months later nothing, nine months later nothing, when some of us asked them about it. We are going to do it, just wait…

Next thing you know a year went way past still nothing. So a friend of mine and myself made plans to just go out and do it. Next thing you know people started coming and the church was filling up.

One of the guys he and visited was wayward Christian drinking drugs etc. He started coming to church and is now a Sunday School teacher

Evangelism is great, and man I agree with everything you’ve said! One thing I’ve observed though is that if we are going to reach people. We really need to change some things about how we do church. It seems like the only people that enjoy church are, well...church people. I’m a worship and youth pastor and I often try to observe our services objectively, taking into account how an outsider would view our meetings. There are many things that are good, but overall I think most people on the street wouldn’t fit in.

Now, I’m not saying that we water down our services or cater to every fad out there, but we really do need to do away with some of the traditional “churchy” things we do. I’ve been reading Dave Pagitt’s book, “Church Re-Imagined” Pretty thought provoking stuff. It’s totally revolutionizing my whole concept of what church can be like. Imagine a place where people can come off of the street, will not feel judged, but are openly accepted and encouraged to ask questions and dialogue about faith and the Bible. Often we send this impression that we have the truth, we do it the right way and people will just have to fit our mold. Rather, perhaps we could put up for debate some of our beliefs and practices. Often we do alot of things that we can’t even explain why we do them. Maybe then we’d learn how to explain what’s so great about Christianity to a world that thinks Christianity is a hoax.

Anyway...I rambled on an on about this and that. Hopefully it makes sense to someone out there.

Blessings, and may we quit doing church and be the Church!

The problem with the Git-R-Done mentality is we miss Paul’s real passion; Jesus Christ! Reaching people is certainly a divine call, but that call proceeds from a rich, submitted, and abandon love for Jesus as a personal friend and Lord of life.
BTW, If you have ever heard Larry the Cable Guy’s routine you would stay clear of using anything he comes up with including his monicer trademark descriptive. 
Oswald chambers reminds us that service to Jesus is Not what we do for Him, it is what we ARE to Him.  Forget the “plan” and live every day a life submitted to Christ. Nearly every major denomination has an evangelistic plan for winning the world, most are not working well! God’s plan is to so saturate us with the person of Christ that we can be used of God every day in all places.
Paul preached but he also worked on tents, traveled with sailors, made breakfast for the hungry, and spent the most productive years of his life as a prisoner of the Roman government.  He got done what God wanted done as a result of relationship and not a formulated one night a week outreach plan. We have a lot of rethinking to do.
Certainly we must reach out to the lost, but the local church is not the place to do that best. The local church family is a training ground for equipping for the work of the ministry outside the walls of the assembly-house.
Thanks for reading my rantings! They are the result of much frustration with plans and programs that miss the mark.

Paul’s letter was addressed to “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ - their Lord and ours: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” NIV (1 Corinthians 1:2-3)

His description is interesting in that it does not sound like the local church is filled with the “unchurched,” the “seekers,” or even the “churched.”

Your description of 1 Corinthians 9 seems to imply that it is describing what it should look like inside the local church.  When I read it seems to be describing the individual Christian and how he is to engage his relational world while in the world. How do you get it to be the “local church” rather than the “I” that Paul so clearly describes?

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.” NIV (emphasis mine)

The “I” makes it clear that this is talking about the individual - not the local church gathering. Paul is addressing those in the local church about how they are to operate outside the local church – in the world! However, if you would like it to be the local church, as you have suggested, then we need strictly Jewish church for the Jewish seeker, a church built on laws for the lover of laws, a homosexual church, a worldly church, and more. Of course, getting people to come and keep coming requires a slight modification of the Word but that OK - we don’t have to say that Jesus is the Messiah, that homosexuality is a sin, or that you must give up your life to gain life in Christ. Or perhaps we are already doing this…

You seem to imply that Paul would promote the “seeker” service messages of today.  When looking at his writing to the local church…can you give me any indication that Paul was sounding anything like a “seeker” message today?  QUITE THE CONTRARY!  Paul is sounding NOTHING like the “seeker” message or services of today.  What Paul is presenting to these “infants in Christ” would be totally ruled out today by the CGM as difficult, confrontational, unloving, unwelcoming, unnecessary, unproductive and more!

Let take a look at another verse (1 Corinthians 14:23) typically utilized to promote “seeker” services but let’s expand it (+/- a verse) to look at what it might really be saying.
1 Corinthians 14:22-25
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbelievers or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25 and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” NIV (bold emphasis mine)

Are you getting that “seeker sensitive” or “seeker service” feeling? I’m not.

And yes - Jesus’ audience was full of seekers...just as my audience and your audience while in the world! This is not the same thing as the fellowship of believers (local church). Jesus gave us great insight on how to be in the world but not of the world.  However, he was not describing the local church - something that was formed after his time on earth. He used others, primarily Paul, to provide to us descriptions of the local church.  Both Jesus and Paul provided for us clarity of how we are to operate in the world but Paul provided much more clarity on the local church/fellowship of believers.  Paul spent his life both in the world reaching the lost and in the church edifying the saint.

We seem today to be mixing the two in an unhealthy manner. I am not sure why but I suspect it has a lot to do with Christians like you and me that did a poor job of operating in the world as Jesus and Paul presented so we have found a “better” way (God’s ways do not always seem as good/comfortable/easy as my ways) – bring them into the local church.  However, preaching like Paul will not get them “churched” so let’s make a change with that also.

Thoughtfully – from a man seeking to learn the Truth in this very confusing time…

A very refreshing insight. I am pastor of a new church start ( over 2 years old )and the “What if” that you included this morning reminded me of one of my first sermons and a part of our church’s info packets....

“WHAT IF” IDEAS OF THE GRACEROCK MOVEMENT

What if there was a group of Christ followers that decided to truly follow the teachings and examples of the New Testament? Acts 2:42-47
What if there were no long-term needs in this community of believers?
What if they had unconditional love for all, no matter who that person was or is?  No matter what they had done in the past or were doing in the present. But the group believed if that person has a personal relationship with the living God and His followers that their future would be a whole different story. John 4:7-10
What if these folks were extremely and profoundly changed in their personal and their families’ lives because of the relationship, discipleship and guidance with and through Jesus Christ?
What if they were so excited about their life change, that they invited others to join them on their journey?
What if they became so infectious in their everyday lives, that the community and region that they live in and serve would be dramatically changed forever?
What if people stopped these people while they were shopping or working to ask them why they were so different in their actions and reactions to life situations, and they were happy to share it with them?

What if these people couldn’t wait to go to a gathering of the church, and when they left, they were enlightened, fulfilled and ready for the days ahead?

Let’s not get so hung up in church that we don’t understand what Jesus has and is teaching us about why we are here.

Lets buy U2 iPods for everyone on the face of the earth. That’ll Git R Done.

Git-R-Done.
I think your right on target.  It would be wonderful to be in a church that has this mentality.  Maybe our moto should be “What ever it takes”?  Time as we know it is running out and we must be about the fathers buisness of reaching our world for Jesus Christ.  Everything we do must revolve around sharing Jesus with people.  IF we are not doing this we are taking up space.
Al1

Todd again,

Thanks, Kevin… but we ALL know what you MEANT:

Larry the Cable Guy = great role model for our kids and even for pastors and church leaders…

Tradition = bad / New = Good

Evangelism = Good / Discipleship = Bad

I think you may have even inferred in there somewhere that you prefer “The Message” over the original King James. 

I agree… let’s lighten up a little here… and yet take our job very seriously.  Actually, I have a post for later this week about how blogging works and how people disagree so strongly on blogs my misreading what posters are actually saying.  I think some like to disagree just to disagree sometimes.  It’s great therapy… just like kicking the cat.  (now I’ll have cat-lovers mad at me, taking me literally… I haven’t actually kicked a cat yet today; and it’s almost noon!)

Todd

I was doing some research on evangelism and just happened by. “The fields are white for harvest.” Get back to work!

Good article—but not really hitting the problem.

You can not compare an evangelist/Apostle/apologist/1st century preacher to a CHURCH.

1) Paul as an evangelist did indeed become “all things to all men” for the sake of the Gospel message where he entered into the territory of the hearer.  This territory was not just geographical, it was their basic belief system and the way they approached “religion.” Paul brought “relationship” with him.

2) The Church (body of believers) is not the apostle Paul although Paul is a part of the “Church.” We so often confuse buildings/programs/events with “church” and miss the life changing experience that can only be experienced through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

3) The individuals in the “CHURCH” should be equipped do specific work (IE) tasks/functions/programs/ with the “GIFTS” they have to make the body of believers attractive for the unbeliever.  It is the denial of the individual “GIFTS of the Spirit” that is the real issue in our churches today.  We play at CHURCH with people who deny the “gifts of the Spirit” and think that we can have “CHURCH” without the “SPIRIT” of God in the center of our Church.  To me this is extreme foolishness!

4) The “Church” can not be “all things to all men” BUT people (for the sake of reaching the lost) can.  This does not confuse the church being the “body” of Christ with the “gifts” that the Body of Christ should possess although articles like the one we read often confuse the two.

5) The Church—should not change and should hold to the strict standards that Jesus in His Word holds for the “Church.” This is accomplished when we the “Body of believers” want to become more “Christ like” as individual members of the BODY.

6) The same problems still face the CHURCH today that the first century apostles faced as they come with different names and titles!  We have the Pharisees who are politically offended by the “right way (singular) that God insists on the Church to function.” We have the “Gnostics” that think that their education and knowledge is the key to their “faith.” We have the same old Satan running around to see who he can devour! Satan’s game is still on and our game players are still debating on how we should do it when the WORD has specific instructions. FOOLISHNESS! (I used the word GAME as an analogy when it is a real life and death struggle for those who need a close up relationship with Jesus—it is NO GAME)

7) We think that we can lower the STANDARDS set for HOLINESS and find a PROGRAM or become “seeker sensitive” to make our numbers grow and we are then successful.  The Church is filled with people who think the “CHURCH” is a “SOCIAL event” and not a STANDARD for life that is headed by JESUS!  Church is a SUNDAY thing as lives are lived the other 6 days with more conforming to the world than to Jesus.

WOW!!  I will stop here—I think I am very passionate on this subject as an Evangelist who sends people into social events where they hear about each other --when they should be there to HEAR FROM GOD! God is our great physician as He works those miraculous CHARACTER CHANGING EVENTS THAT ARE ONLY ACCOMPLISHED WHEN THE WORD OF GOD ENTERS IN.  PREACH THE WORD!

Pastor Bill

Thanks Todd, the seeker/discipleship argument takes over too often & gets really old. We should do what God calls us to do..and stop trying to mold everyone into the same thing.  Several people have been e-mailing their thoughts regarding this exact question to me for the last year.  Here are some fun/quirky and provoking dream “what if"s.

1. What if we bought a tow truck and helped people who got stuck, in a time of immediate need...no charge just an invite to church for the “bill”. 
2. What if we met in the food court of a mall then offered to buy people coffee if they would talk to us for 5 minutes. (a group in England was doing this on campus)
3.  What if we went out on Sat. morning and actually went into neighborhoods to say hello! (or servant acts)
4. What if we opened a stand up comedy venue with only clean comics. 
5. What if we went to a local park and started a spontaneous game of kickball or soccer and invited all the neighborhood kids.
6. What if we actually said hello to people we didn’t know outside of our “cliques” at church. 
7. What if we Gasp...reconstructed the entire “service” for non-believers (please no dumping on this yet, work with me for a minute) by creating a narrative story style with interactive modules, and media. (by the way I am hardcore Baptist, no easy believism. Cmon we don’t even talk the language of our congregations let alone the “lost” People endure most of our services)

Go Ed & Jeff!..new paradigm thinkers would be welcome at Community Arts. (notice no “churh” insert palpatations of shock here). 

8. What if fellow believers would stop “dumping” on pioneer idea people who do take action.  Hmmmm.

Let’s excercise some imaginuity!When we run up against the walls that exist, think about do we want to be in a “club” playing church for the next 10 years or can we excercise a deep Christian walk, disciple others and be innovative by changing or going outside of the current parameters of “church”?
To continue the dialogue: I am a media/drama director and Bond slave of Christ.