Friends
If the comments so far are a sample of what is going on in the church today, no wonder we, as the church cannot get new souls in for the work of the kingdom.  It sounds like the traditional thanksgiving meal where we invite all those relatives we really did not want to ever see again, and end up complaining about everything!
Anyway...it sounds as if Jesus was the only one who was able to trust those whom He left in charge when He passed the mantle........!  And, reflecting on the comment by Leonard, no wonder why the Holy Spirit wrote in Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ just a final thought........................is the success of those mega churches because there is little contact and one never gets the opportunity to be ‘hurt’

One who feels as Jeremiah must have................

1. Yes, as an associate pastor I have a high level of trust in my lead pastor.
2. I have the same level of trust & confidence in the integrity of our other associates & staff members.
3. I have observed nothing among the staff in the last 12 months that was illegal or unethical. Had there been anything come up, it would have been immediately addressed as it has been in the past - biblically, fairly, respecting everyone involved & with a goal of restitution & restoration if possible.

Ricky -

then all hope is lost?

And, aren’t there spiritual gifts pertaining specifically to leadership functions in the church?

Biblically, you’ll find the word ‘elders’ used - a multiplicity of leaders- rather than an individual. Accountability and vulnerability can exist in such an atmosphere not only for the spiritual disciplines but also to lovingly point out sin. Aids in keeping trust and honesty front and center.

The sad truth is that we’ve expanded the gap between clergy and laity rather than taken seriously the purpose of leadership - to equip the saints for works of service to build up the body of Christ - giving ministry into the hands of the ‘laity’ rather than hoard it. Therein lies an area for mistrust.

There are leaders - out of necessity - but their roles at times have been relegated/regulated as ‘hired guns’ to come in and preach or make hospital/front porch visits. That may be from mistrust of prior years or for something else, but the pastor needs to step up and fulfill the call as shepherd & ‘elder among elders’ - in essence the “leader” of the congregation (or as one of my elders calls it - the bell cow - not really flattering, but ideal.)

There’s really no clear cut answer for it, but we must be willing to follow the biblical patterns and mandates even if it costs us positions/jobs, etc. All you can do is be transparent in all your dealings with others, apologize when you make mistakes, let your intentions be made known, and count on the leadership of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the true church around you. It comes down to, “Can God be trusted with the intricate details?”

We can say yes, but will we be willing to live it out? If so, there is the beginning of hope.

Ricky writes {In addition, one thing that breeds distrust in most “churches” today is the man-made chasm of “clergy vs. laity.”}

Is this the same Ricky I’ve butted heads with on occasion? Ricky, you are so right on this statement. Not that there aren’t people (like myself) who are called by God to lead His church… There are. They are called pastors. They have a God-given role and “office.”

\BUT… This pedestal we either allow ourselves to be put on or put ourselves on is destructive, and often sinful. When we can lead as servants, and as “regular guys” rather than some holy man in a collar… THEN we will be leading a “priesthood of all believers.” I don’t encourage people to use the “pastor” title with me. I’m just a guy like them.

Lead. Yes, but do it as a peer, as a servant, as a shepherd, not as a president, a CEO (although the best of those are great servant leaders --a la “Good To Great"--so maybe CEO isn’t a horrible model in one sense), or a dictator. Jesus washed his disciples feet, and even those of us who consider foot-washing an ordinance of the church are often bad at doing what we’re SUPPOSED to be doing as a result of that event. I pray we get better.

Thanks Ricky!

Note to Mike Shepherd;
Thanks for being transparent and honest. My wife has been where your wife is or working through the process. She still loves the Lord, but has no trust or confidence in church leadership.  My family has been “brutalized” may be too strong a term, but certainly targeted by the enemy and gotten beaten up, via the church leadership.
Personally I see leadership/committees etc. as going to the lowest common denominator. It’s a phenomenon to me how a group of Godly people, loving each other, the church, God’s scriptures can get in a room and make the most insensitive, unspiritual, down right nasty ungrace-filled decisions, I’m truly amazed.
I don’t know if it’s ego, pride, fear or what that seems to keep us under a cloud of suspicion and lack of speaking the truth in love to each other. I’m as guilty as anyone of being guarded, secretly deceptive of how I really believe, fearing retaliation, rejection and eventually being let go.
I don’t fear being disagreed with, or my opinions rejected, it has to do with the “good ‘ole boy” syndrone. The play the game my way or it’s the hiway.
I’m a team player always have been, but I’m smart enough to know when we need to turn left instead of right and if given the freedom and opportunity I’ll be perfectly honest and open hearted about it.
But my exposure has been that most Sr. leadership (Sr. Pastor types) don’t want your opinion, your expertise, your knowledge and experience, they merely want you to do their thing, their way.
Thanks for many of you being very open about this subject.
I’m as guitly as the next guy in keeping the truth and my trust guarded. That’s why my wife and I are praying about being involved with an “organic” ministry. One that is home-based; Starbucks, the neighbors house is your church, not a formal building. We would meet once amonth in a large hall and celebrate together. But leadership would based upon lay people getting involved.
It’s not perfect (we’re human beings) but some of the stigma of “church” is out of the picture.
There are so many people I know my age (50+) who’ve given up on church. They were born and raised Christians and still love Jesus, but they HATE church, it’s politics, it’s phoniness, it’s slick programs and no guts for real living.
Thanks everyone, blessings to you all whever you are on this continum.

Ricky, I think you’re reaching on this point again (as I recall you have in the past). There is far too much information given in the New Testament on how Christian leaders and pastors should lead and pastor. We have three letters written specifically to pastors giving them instructions about worship, on how to select church leaders, how to care for widows, et cetera. Three letters written VERY specifically to pastors.

You ask “where does Jesus bequeath the Church to the apostles?” All over the place. The very passage you cite, although it may have been a large crowd that saw Jesus ascend (my Bible only states that the apostles saw it), they were the people who were going to be used to lead a church that was about to grow in size by 3000 in just a short while.

The great commission in Matt 28:16-20 and mark 16:15-18 is given to those disciples who were to lead the church. The mission of the church, which you very eloquently stated as being the witnesses of Christ, was given to those early leaders.

In Matthew 16:17-19, as much as we who are not Catholic hate to admit it, Jesus gives the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter.

I’ve heard this point before, from you and others… it doesn’t hold water to me. Some are called to lead the church. It’s obvious to me.

Ricky,

You said, “I reiterate my earlier statement...that Jesus trusted implicitly in the Holy Spirit to guide the Church, as He does today.”

God works through His leadership.  The apostles were called to lead (by the Spirit) and serve.  When the church needs to go in a certain direction and everybody has their own idea about how to get there who’s to say which is the right way.  Well God tell the Sr. Pastor or leadership and the church follows.  If the senior leader is wrong God will protect, sustain and prosper His church because they were submitted to God through their submission to the leader.  If the leader makes a mistake but was genuinely trying to be led by the Holy Spirit they too are protected.  To disrespect God’s leader is to disrespect God. 

I don’t discount that there are bad leaders, but if God places us under them (and He does) then our responsibility is to submit to their leadership and obey them unless they violate God’s Word.  And if the leaders does violate God’s will it’s God’s responsibility to deal His leader.  I think that’s one of reasons some bad leaders are still in certain places, cause people want to deal with the leader instead of staying submitted to the leader as unto the Lord and allowing God to be the true leaders and owner of His church.

To I_am_not and Tony,

I know that you feel like your trust issue is with your former pastor and not with God, but God requires that we submit and obey those He’s placed in authority.  I question how well one will obey and submit if they do not trust.  Most people say I’ll obey/submit when I trust you.  That’s how the world sees it.  God is trying to get those who are His away from this type of mentality.

We need to learn that it is God and not ourselves who places us in a partcular congregation (or at least that’s how it should be-1 Cor 12:18).  Since that is true and God is all-seeing and knowing why would God put anyone in a church where bad leadership would do unethical things and hurt people?  And if that happens whose fault is it?  If God knew how bad leadership would effect you wouldn’t He do something so it would never happen?  The fact that He allows is should tell us something.

A lot of people say they are guarding their hearts because of these hurts or they don’t trust because of what they’ve seen, which means they feel like they have to protect themselves.  If you feel like YOU have to protect yourself/guard your heart that mean you feel like GOD’s protection is inadequate to do the job, especially if you’re currently in a bad situation. Otherwise why would you have to do anything? If I really trust God in all of His infinite power and wisdom then I can trust and don’t have to guard my heart no matter what people do. 

Romans 8:28 says, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” It doesn’t say all things are good, but that they work together for the good.  I know what I’m saying sounds foreign and believe me, you got to go through some things and grow a little to get this.  I’ve experienced a lot to get this point but believe me when I tell you if you REALLY trust God then you can trust, submit and obey anyone God says you should regardless of what they do, because our faith isn’t in man.  It’s in the Lord.

One of the postings said I expect people to be themselves.  This ignores God’s ability to change people so that they will walk in the Spirit and not the flesh.  I think that’s one of the reason God’s put us in situations with bad leadership.  Don’t let your experiences trap you or your feelings rule you.  Trust in the Lord (Prov 3:5-6).  Blessings friend.

I am not in ministry; I am a parent. A single parent. We left our church after the youth group went on a trip a few hundred miles from home and we found out that the only woman on the trip, a pastor’s wife, left the group to stay with her relatives in that town. It was a small group of three teen girls, several younger boys, a pastor and his wife, the youth minister without his wife and another young man also without his wife.

No one told us before, during or after the trip, that the pastor’s wife would be away from the girls for the entire trip, including overnight. They all, except for her, spent the night in a church building.

When I talked to another pastor to see about getting stringent, easily understood youth policies in writing for all of us, they didn’t want to do that.

I chose to leave and then the gossip started, and kids started questioning my child, which devastated and humiliated her. I asked the same pastor to please address it within the youth ministry and he became rather sarcastic and asked me if I wanted them to announce it from the pulpit, or something. He said since we left and didn’t tell anyone why, then other kids and adults had the right to ask my daughter about all of it, and there was no way to stop gossip anyway; it would just make things worse. For whom I was never sure.

For the next several months the youth pastor periodically pursued my daughter at the school she went to, ( the youth pastor’s wife teaches there),at Christian youth camp, even sending a note to my daughter’s classroom asking her to attend a youth group function leaving from their church building.

When I wrote him and tried to explain that we were trying to move on, and this was making it difficult, he said it was the ‘kids’ asking my daughter to do things and he could ask them to stop but he couldn’t guarantee they would. He said the only way he knew of to get them to stop asking my daughter to do things with their group was for me to give him permission to tell the youth group that I didn’t want my daughter to do anything with them. That way he said, my daughter ‘wouldn’t feel snubbed when those who used to be her friends’ did their activities.

My daughter is stil friends with the kids in that group; they all love each other/.

I finally got the school involved and the wife was talked to.Twice.I communicated with her as well and she told me in an e-mail that if I persisted in trying to talk with her, it would have to be with a school administrator there or a leader of her church present. In other words,’go away’.

I had sought help and advice from an old friend of the family who is a retired pastor and at first he was concerned. He said he had to go talk to one of the pastors at the old church and then he would get back with me. I never heard from him again, until I called HIM, almost ten months later, when the youth pastor sent the note to my daughter’s class.

He advised me I was overly protective of my child and it would destroy her, and to go back to that church with a ‘clean slate.’ He has cut both my daughter and I out of his and his wife’s lives , but they are still friendly with other members of my family.

I sought help again recently after my daughter consistently has refused to go to church anywhere, with a retired secular counsellor who now does pastoral counselling in our denomination.. He apparently had heard about it all before I talked to him, because he told me he could not help me and my child because I had ‘an agenda’, which was : I am ‘prejudiced against The------Church’.He refused to counsel with us.

Now I feel like a stranger among people and a church community I have known most of my life. I don’t understand what has happened.I know its a big misunderstanding but as I believe the misunderstadning originated with the respected leadership of that church, I wll never get it cleared up.

Apparently the pastor who went on the trip- who was the overseer of the youth minister- felt that I did not handle the situation according to scripture, where one is supposed to go to the person who offended them and so on. I felt it was not a personal matter; it was a church matter.
He, by the way has stayed eerily silent thru all of this.
No one has apologized, tried to smooth it over, explain etc to anyone in my family.
We had known some of these leaders for 30 years.

In the last three months the youth minister was asked to resign. He is getting out of youth ministry and leaving town.I was told by another pastor’s wife that the youth minister felt bad about the trip, so he and his wife were trying to get my daughter back to make the leadership happy with him.

I want to move on, but this has left painful feelings between my child and I and she says now she is just waiting to go away to college in a couple of years because I have ruined her life by taking the place she most loved away from her.Her church.

We had/have no one to stand with us, and to help explain to her that sometimes we have to leave Situations - it doesn’t mean we don’t love the people, or even think they did anything wrong specifically, but sometimes we have to make painful choices.

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to let other ministry leaders who read this know how much their behavior and actions affect families; The church leaders wanted things to go on as usual.They circled the wagons when if they had simply discussed this with me and put policies in place for all the parents , kids, and members alike, we would have stayed. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t do this. I was the only fly in the ointment, so I had to be dealt with.Later on they did instate some policies.What devastated me was that they wanted my child to come back- MINUS me, and minus any discussion with me about the matter.

Transparency is crucial to avoiding misunderstandings and ill feelings.

I am still confused about the whole thing, but I believe Idid the only thing I could have done.

thanks,
Monica

Hi P,

As a pastor and PK I understand what you are facing. I wish your father and mine had the opportunity to talk more extensively as he went through a situation very very similar to your father’s and he now cousels pastor who have faced such situations.  I believe he would provide great encouragement, insight and direction.  I will pray for you all.  God knows this is going on and He’s not forgotten about you.