Todd - I look forward to these articles.  They are so timely.  We area church that is making a public (at least to ourselves) resolution that we are a church in transformation.  This should always be the case, but has not been for many years at this church.  We have changed the structure (government) accepted a mission and vision, and now, as in the past, the conflicts arise, mainly because of a perceived and real loss of power and control.  The difficulty is meshing, if possible, the two together.

Michael Deutsch
Dearborn, Michigan

Thanks for doing this series.  I think it’s so vital that we have a clear picture of what we’re aiming for, which should always be what God has in mind.  I have a fundamental concern at the outset of the discussion - a subtle (but significant) change in our view of personal and corporate spirituality over the years.  It is the mindset that says,

“Let’s dream up and aim for the best, even though we know none of us will ever reach it.”

I believe this is self-defeating and contradictory to what Scripture says.  I think the perfect church is one that believes that God can enable what He commands - love from a sincere heart.

I’ve just spent the past weekend at a conference about the Trinity.  One of the speakers, Bart Campolo, spoke on how God is perfect love because He is community, and how He created us, not because He needed someone to love, but because the nature of His love was to include and to share.

I think the perfect church is one that models that kind of love, one that grasps God’s love firts, loves its own community second, and then reaches out to include more and more people in its vortex of love.  It can be done!  Let’s not buy into the defeatist mentality.  God enables what He commands, “And my commandment is this - love one another as I have loved you.”

The church is not made up of perfect people, but we can certainly strive to have a perfect union with one another. It is people serving in their callings and staying focused on being unified with others around them, although we have to keep our eyes on the Lord and not the short comings of others. People excited about giving and going forward. Everyone in full participation of worship and praising God with thankfulness, and the most important aspect of a perfect church is people having a great burden for a lost and hurting world. The pastor has to have a vision to serve, grow, and evangelize to his congregation and the world and meet the constant needs for resolution between those in conflict. His leaders should carefully watch for problems that arrise and make them known to the Pastor. There is a great need for people to love the Lord and to love each other and to keep that love in every part of their ministries. We all need to be excited about the potential that God creates in every ministry and study His word with and present it with power.

Who defines “perfect”?
Is there such an animal?
To me, it has the connotation of an absence of problems.
I still prefer the word “healthy” to “perfect”.
Living with paradox and complexity seems more achievable, than resolution.
Or am I settling my sights too low?

I have seen the front lines of the enemy for years only to see him win battle after battle. I know he has not won the war and he will not. Here is what I think.  The people of God can be just as carnel as a lost person and sometimes not even knowing it because the heart has hardened. The church suffers because we try to put unity above love.  Big mistake.  Unity should never supersead love...... When it does we begin to see those compromise the very Word we claim to protect.  I look forward to this topic very much.

Well this is certainly a timely subject for my self and wife.  We are looking for a new church and this will assist us in understanding what we are looking for in a church; both as a member and a leader in that church.

That said, the biggest item that we are looking for is a church that fosters sacredness without formality.  One that seeks holiness, but is not controlling and dictatorial.  The church is to be a body of believers who are gathering together to seek God in everything that they do, not just on Sunday morning or some other meeting time.  The church should be free enough to allow the expression of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the blooming of the fruits that would come from those expressions.

The individual church body is to be composed of men and women that have a relationship to God through the Jesus.

I look foreard to see where this discussion goes in the following weeks.

The conceptualization of a “perfect church” is a good, outward exercise for churchmen (and church-ladies). As Lutherans, we center our thinking on “church” on things like the “marks of the church” - that is, the Word and Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper. A perfect church is a place where God and His people come together around these “means of grace” for the purpose of relationship and faith building. Then comes the hard part: taking what we have received by the grace of God and then extending such gracious to seemingly ingracious people. The “us vs. them” thinking that is often (if not subtly) expressed by church-going folk is not a reflection of the gracious God who calls us out of the darkness of sin, death, and hell through the sacrificial death and resurrected life of His Son.

I look forward to seeing where this discussion goes!

Larry says:
“I still prefer the word “healthy” to “perfect”.

I very much agree.  Aiming for “perfect” may incline to propose programs, whereas “healthy” may help encourage the goal of relationships (relationships are sorely needed and should be one of the prime goals for a church).

...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com/

As we all know, perfection has only been achieved by one person, Christ. So as close as we could come to a “perfect” church would be a group of people all striving to be as much like Christ as possible. But as we also know the church has many people within it that are no more concerned with conforming to the image of Jesus as they are to jumping off a cliff. So, let’s just get all the “strivers” together and have a perfect church? Don’t think that would work either.
Agape love, accountability, concern for others over self, pleasing God rather than pleasing people - these are just a few of the characteristics that would promote a better church.
I am thankful and looking forward to that day though when the church will be perfect and Christ will receive it when He comes again. That alone should motivate us to strive for perfection in all that we do in an effort to push our own church closer to perfection.

I LOVE IT…

Talk about a can of worms...perfect church...good to great...healthy vs sick…

I love this stuff…

I want to be part of going from good to great…

God called us into ministry...we want everything God has for us…

What is the perfect chruch to me

a united effort to Love God and Love people…

I can see by the comments that you have your work cut out for you. I think we have gotten away from the basic biblical principle that “they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth..” A lot of folks see their preferences and have no biblical basis for them. It donesn’t mean they are wrong - it just means that they have a different way of worshipping. If we can worship, if we can win souls, and if we as believers can be strengthened, then the entire worship experience has been accomplished. If, however, the worship service is not accomplishing these things, then we have failed to accomplish what the church is commanded to do.

I look forward to see where this ends up.

God bless,

If by “perfect” we mean “complete or whole or even healthy”, then I think the perfect local church can be built and does exist. But if by perfect we mean, without sin and always right, then that church won’t come into being until our Savior returns because every local church is comprised of sinners ...saved by grace.

Churches are like families: There’s an infinite variety of healthy, complete, whole families. Likewise there’s an ever growing number of healthy, whole local churches and each one is unique.

There are common beliefs (and behaviors that spring from those beliefs) that define a healthy family, there are certainly common beliefs (and again practices that come about as a result of those beliefs) that any “perfect” church must have.

Some of the common beliefs are:

>The Love of Christ,
>The direction of the Holy Spirit
>And obedience to our Heavenly Father’s Word.

One of those admonitions in His Word,of course is that we maintain unity within the body of Christ. Sure, there are others, but for the sake of this discussion, unity is an important one.

As Christ prayed for our unity,..."that we would be one just as He and His Father are”, each local church should live out unity in such a way that our behavior would indeed be an outward sign to non and prebelievers of our Love for Christ.

Now, since we know that where two or three Christians are gathered together, there will certainly be at least four or five differences, all of us in the local church would be wise to learn how to resovle our differences.

Since churches are like families we will always be unique in how we do our Fathers Will. In one neighborhood, the “perfect” church may look like a “Mega-Purpose Driven” church. In another part of the world it may look like a “Healthy Village of Small Groups” church. And in another region it may have the flair of a “Gen-X High-Tech” church.

No matter how we practice these beliefs or in Ken’s verbage, carry forth the vision, we will always have differences, so I pray we’ll be able to come away from this series of discussions with useful ways to resolve conflict.

Love and Blessings/ST

Highest than the highest human thought is God’s ideal for His Body, the church. Perfect church? Of course! Be ye perfect even as your Heavenly Father is perfect (in Agape). Our perfection as individuals and as a corporate Body is wrapped up in that of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We appropriate, by faith, His perfection and His righteousness and we therefore become such a people. The church will one day be without spot or wrinkle meanwhile it goes from one level of maturity (teleos/perfection) to the next. This is only achievable IN Christ, through the direction and power of the Holy Spirit. How will this church look like? Simple. The Body and the Head (Christ) will look like they belong together to the onlooker. It will be defintely georgeous in every sense of the word. All heads will turn to marvel at its loveliness and its LQ (loving or lovable Quotient) and be irresitibly drawn to it. To be church is not the same as to do church. The former is Scripturally Christ Centered and Spirit driven. The latter is culturally, sociologically, economically, etc. conditioned. Nothing wrong with the latter as long as we are aware of the dangers and pitfalls and let ourselves be informed and corrected by Scripture. How this expresses itself practically and creatively is up to the local congregation. No two families are alike. No two churches, even within the same Christian denomination are identical. You can be a perfect church of any dimension: small, medium. large, or mega, Now!