Todd,

Great post, and great “re-post.”

There really isn’t just “one way” to do church.  But that seems to be the problem...we are far more concerned with how we “do church” than we are with “being the church.” Let me explain:

If I’m not “the church” (or at least a part of it) to those with whom I worship on Sundays--during the rest of the week--then how I/we/they “do church” really isn’t very important in the greater scheme of things.

I do prefer to sing at least two hymns, as well as some of the newer choruses--because they speak strong, Biblical truth.  They admonish/teach us.  But what about when I leave the facilities, and go home...or go to my job...or interact with others.  How well am I “being the church” for those around me?

I have read Purpose-Driven Life--and I loved it!  I’m a committed Wesleyan/Pentecostal, but PDL is probably one of the very best discipleship tools that I have ever seen.  Pastor Warren has done the Body of Christ a wonderful service with this great book.

And now we must learn to “be the church"--and that becomes very challenging--considering that we have to deal with HUMAN beings--not robots.

I would far rather someone “be the church” for me, instead of just “doing church.”

My .02 worth

Well… there IS only one right way to do church! And that is the way that will result in making disciples in the place where YOUR CHURCH is at, geographically, et cetera! So, find out what that way is and keep working with it and keep working on it! After all, Paul DID preach differently in different places. So did Jesus. Same message, different emphases, styles, et cetera…

And I think you might find fewer criticisms of this than you might expect, Todd, because of point #2. It’s a bit of a catch-all that should defuse a lot of criticism.

Why are we so critical? Faith is at the root of our value system. For many of us, our faith includes what we are comfortable with. I have nothing agains liturgical worship, but I’m uncomfortable with it, for instance. This isn’t theology, this is about what I value in worship experience. For too many of us, faith includes style, how that faith is expressed.
These issues are very near and dear to our hearts. Attack my child, you attack me. When you insinuate my style is ineffective or otherwise invalid, you attack me. When you say our two styles can both serve the kindgom, I attack you cause then you’re saying my way isn’t the ultimate, God-ordained way.
When we served in Central America, our worship was different. What didn’t work there was when we tried to make USA churches out of Latin American indians. So, we adjusted. 
I come from a faith background that is mighty suspicious of anything successful, and despite the example of Acts 2, anything big and successful MUST be watered down or whatever. “Why, if they were faithful like us, they would struggle like we do.” Do you guys ever suppose that some minsitries are big because they were given 10 talents by their Lord, and you were only given 5 or 1? Maybe I’m a 1 talent guy, but when my Lord asks an account of me all that matters is that I didn’t bury my 1 in a hole but instead invested it for Him.
Some of us are small-timers, and we are so jealous--till I learned some people can only be reached by a small-timer. And, that’s great. I preached recently in Acts 9 AFTER Paul’s conversion. Read about all the little people--Ananias, Judah, and who held the rope while Paul was lowered in a basket? Not much glory, but what a ministry that was! Let’s realize that your corner of the kingdom, however it is decorated, has value if it is faithful to the scriptures. And folks, the scriptures just aren’t a clear about style as most of you assume they are.

pdl:  “It is always programs, ideas, gimmicks, trends, market surveys, fads, “try this/try that” [on this blog]...what a waste of time! What a sorry foundation on which to actually build the Kingdom of God!”

Why are you here, pdl?  Seriously.  If you think this is a waste of time and everything we do here is ‘sorry’, then, honestly… why are you here?

You see, if you don’t agree with much of anything here; and all you are able to do is object; then it’d be great for you to find a blog place ‘to call home’ (because this isn’t it!)

Not to sound harsh… but I wonder why some stick around.

The same in the church… there are some people that just stick around… they hate everything about the church… but they still come.  And complain.

Todd
Todd

And the Holy Spirit can help us reach “every generation"--not just this one.

But we must depend on Him.  We must get to the point of spiritual desperation--where we are desperate to experience His leading, His power, His anointing, and then we can see “every generation” reached for the glory of Christ.

Kevin, Todd…

I stick around because I actually DO NOT hate the Church or other churches, but because I LOVE JESUS CHRIST AND HIS BODY!!!!!!!!!  American churianity is sick!  God did not send us a program to try!  He sent us His Holy Spirit to DRIVE us and His WORD to steer us!  I am enjoining all of us to get on our faces before God and get His fullness back into the Church.  YES, I believe we have wholesale drifted from the paradigm and power of Acts!  None of what we are “trying” (doing church) is seen in the Bible...buying gas (for recent example), driving the church by the purposes of man, making “seekers” out of sinners, marketing to demographics...this is all our “doing”.  My point is:  Where is any encouragement on this blog to fill our churches with prayer as THE impetus for “driving” the church?  I have NEVER seen one post on prayer as trhe central focus of what takes place under the roof of the local church--not one!  Yet that was THE driving force behind the Church at its inception!  I’ll tell you from experience that it is much easier to call the church to get on board with a new program that to man their place in serious corporate discipleship driven prayer.  Kevin, your comments prove my point...we cannot seem to believe that making seeking God in prayer a priority because our desire to rely on a program that we can manage...we don’t trust Acts 2 or 4 to be ours!  Todd, do one post on prayer as the central focus of the Church with the goal of being filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and a call to walk in the apostolic and original paradigm of building the Kingdom of God through the preaching of God’s Word without the fear or favor of men...then I promise I’ll head off into cyberspeace never to be heard from again! 

pdl

Let me ask everyone a question? Is there any that agree/disagree with the ministries of Chuck Swindol, Charles Stanley, or Dr. Daivd Jeremiah?

Point #1 says: Healthy things grow--period. And NO ONE can make a BIBLICAL case for a church remaining small & not caring about the community in which it exists.

Bill: It is all in how you define small - but tell me Todd and others, by this definition of things it was a great error on Jesus part when He said he was the Bread of Life - because many disciples parted from Him after that teaching. He spoke the Truth and downsized His following.

What about Noah, a preacher of righteousness for 120 years who saw 0 conversions and witnessed the God driven execution of all but 8 of the entire population at that time - what then? Was Noah simply not using proper technique?

What about Acts 2 which closes with a very clear pronouncement that the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

What about Jesus own words that Narrow is the road and few are them that find it? Does that paint a portrait of an enormous body of true believers or does it portray the opposite? Which is in line with the parable of the sower, the parable of the wheat and tares and His words that MANY are them who will come to Me on that Day and say to Me Lord Lord. Those to whom He will say “Depart from me, I NEVER knew you.” (Emphasis mine/origin His).

Having grown under the tutelage of a pastor who seeks God for leadership and hearkens to His call, rather than methods or programs, I have seen the fulfillment of God’s plan in our church which was never to grow our church, but rather to preserve a remnant and pave the way for another church to move in and transition our Pastor into a new phase of his ministry for God. I am saddened that many churches today would not even know what it is to wait on God, to listen for the guidance of God, to seek His face rather than some new trend or program or hot point of the day.

The right way to do church has never changed from the day of Pentecost to now - reverence for God, preaching His word and edifying the believers, worshipping Him in Spirit and in Truth and seeking to come together and be of one accord, rather than divided by selfish desires.

In Christ,
Bill

I don’t have the book in front of me right now...but there is a passage in BH’s book “Rediscovering Church” (his teatise on SS) that equates the energy/excitement of some kids throwing a frisbee around a church sanctuary with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2...if you look up that passage yourself you will see what my point has been on this post...ie. if we, in “doing church”, can create enough human energy/excitement we will experience “church growth”...maybe sombody out there has a copy...I’m working from memory here...if I got it wrong correct me...but, the passage/incident in the book is an illustration of my point regarding how man-centeredness has driven the American church in the last 20yrs…

pdl

Bill & pdl,
The church I attend Forks of Elkhorn has went from 25 people attending to 1300+. Each year that passes our numbers go up for people becoming Christians and baptisims. Our church is a praying church. And here is our track record.

1) Forks has started 7 baptist churches in the Franklin County area. Everyone of them were started before any of us were ever born because Forks went through the Civil War.

2) There is talk of starting a Life Center.

3) There have been three members who have left the church because God called them to preach and now they pastor churches in the Franklin Co. area.

4) We have 1 Evangelist and that is myself.

5) We have over 10 missionaires in our church. There are some who are in the South helping because of the past two hurricanes.

6) We have 5 different praise bands. One left us to help another little church who was struggling.

What I am trying to get at is this. We did not split. And there is talk of maybe one day starting another Church somewhere else. Wouldn’t it behoove our churches to get out there and start other churches, instead of waiting until it split’s down the middle.

What about you Bill? Has God ever laid on your heart to start a church. There are program’s for doing this to where your church can actually get involved and help support it.

This is what our Pastor Todd Lester says, “We are not a perfect church, because God is still working on us. I am not a perfect pastor, I am only willing to be used by God however He wants to use me.”

Our Motto is “The best is yet to come”

Quote:

“Growth is not a dirty word.”

Tell that to the woman who has just been told that her cancer has grown.

Growth does not always equate to “blessing.” In fact, one can argue that even the church in Jerusalem, after becoming large, was broken up by God in order to “encourage” them to spread out, to become small, and to bring the gospel to the world.

As I’ve stated before, God always thinks the opposite of what we may think.  We think “growth” is good (ala Todd), whereas He calls us to die.  Why?  Because in our dying, true, organic growth is assured.

However, today’s “growth” equals filling pews with ever-increasing apathetic listeners.  Sure, the organization grows but no one can truly gauge whether the Kingdom of God is actually growing.

We see numbers, God sees individuals.

Quote:

“Bottom line: I really do think that one of the signs of an effective church is growth.”

And that’s where the deceipt comes in.

Quote:

“But I think a sign of that health/growth is that it can be measured numerically.”

How can one measure the Kingdom of God?  Can one measure Heaven?  Can we truly comprehend where the Spirit is going to go next?

Of course not!  And neither are numbers even a helpful method of determining the health of a “church.” An organization?  Yes.  A “church?” No.

Bill & Ricky I have a question for ya.

In the book of Acts it tells us that there were 3000 people saved on the day of Pentecost. Then it tells us that God add to them daily?

If numbers are important to God shouldn’t they be to us?

It says God added to the number of them daily? When you add to something isn’t this growth?

Take our bodies for instant? If growth isn’t important, then all of us would still be 26-30” long. I believe we look silly walking around as full grown adults.

Also consider this. You all keep saying God’s Way is not our’s. Thank goodness.. Hey we all finally agree on something here.
Anyway. Wasn’t it God that said, I will bless who I want to bless and curse who I want to curse.

Look at the nation of Israel. God made them a great nation. Why? Because he told Abraham you will not be able to number them.

Remember Isacc’s older Step brother Ismahel.God made a nation out of him.

Last, If numbers are not important to God why did he tell Adam & Eve, be fruitful and multiply.

Now, I only a farm boy who is a HS grad, with about 1 1/2 yrs seminary ed. But the last time I went to school Adding & Multiplying meant growing. Subtraction meant not growing, but taking away.