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The Right Way to Do Church

Orginally published on Friday, December 02, 2005 at 10:15 AM
by Todd Rhoades

Perry Noble wrote a great piece this week at his blog about all the internet talk about the ‘right way’ to do church… It’s a great read.  Perry wrote…

I have noticed in the world of the internet a quite lively debate over "the right way" to do church. In my mind this is a DANGEROUS place to be--declaring that one way is right and every other way is wrong.

But the debate is raging...traditional vs. contemporary--house church vs. mega church--postmodern vs. well...I don't know what THEY are against--usually everything!!!

My point is that people get trapped into thinking that there is one way to do church--and if other churches are NOT doing church that way then they are WRONG. And to take that even further...the people in the churches that feel as if they are right openly criticize and condemn...and some have even staged protests outside of other churches.

Uh, somehow I am not thinking that is what Jesus meant when He called us to love one another AND to make disciples.

People ask me, "Is the way NewSpring doing church the RIGHT way." My response is always, "No, it is a different way!" There are so many different people in this world...and it is going to take so many different styles to reach them. To claim that there is ONE worship style that is right is both narrow minded and egotistical. And to attack people who ARE NOT compromising the Gospel...but are also NOT compromising Scripture is both arrogant and wrong.

There are several questions that I think need to be asked when evaluating a ministry to see if it is in line...

#1 - Is It Growing?

Jesus called us to reach people--period. Healthy things grow--period. And NO ONE can make a BIBLICAL case for a church remaining small & not caring about the community in which it exists.

I hear it from time to time, "We're small--but we love each other and it is our call to minister to one another." That is a partial truth...it is A PART of our call...but another part is to go and reach people for Christ. A church that is inward focused & gives the community the middle finger and tells them to go to hell is not doing it right--period.

It's not about the style of worship either. There is a church right up the road in Easley that is growing like mad--and they are as traditional as they come. We must be VERY careful NEVER to confuse methodology with theology!

#2 - Is It Scriptural?

I say win the game no matter what--but if a team is caught cheating the ref throws a flag. I am all for doing whatever it takes to reach people; however, Scripture must never be compromised.

Now here is where people will look at churches like NewSpring and claim we are compromising Scripture by not dressing up...or they will condemn the fact that we have a band--things like that.

The problem is that these objections are based on personal preferences rather than precepts, and that is a dangerous line to cross.

I once heard of a legalist objecting to rock and roll music because it had a "4-4" beat. But as I remember flipping through the hymnals that exist in many churches most of the songs were written in...uh...yep...4-4 time.

#3 - Is It Engaging?

I think there is one word to describe a church that is boring--SIN!

Look at it this way--God is not boring. He invented laughter. He invented the sunset. He's the One who developed the concept of sex! (Thank you Jesus!)

And Jesus--He was not a boring dude. He was always telling stories...and wherever He went there was this crowd that followed Him. (So much for keeping it small!) And when He walked on the water...or turned water into wine--trust me--he engaged people.

And the Holy Spirit--one good read through Acts chapter two will highlight the fact that when He moves it is completely obvious!

And the Bible--this is the most exciting book ever written. There are stories of war, romance, kings and queens, you name it--it's in there.

Unfortunately I know of many churches who have taken God, Jesus, the Spirit, and the Bible and made them the most boring and irrelevant things on the planet.

God is NOT boring--His Bride should not be either!

These three questions are things that I use to evaluate this ministry. To be honest, I don't have time to go around and inspect other people, churches, and ministries, take the time to listen to the messages that the teachers in that church does, read all the things that comes out of that church, and then criticize that ministry through random e-mails and blog comments. (I would argue that a person who does have time for that needs a few things...such as a job...)

I know we are not perfect--we never will be. I tell this church often that as long as I am the pastor that things will probably be screwed up around here. However, I believe with all of my heart that we are doing exactly what Jesus has called us to do...and that we are doing it exactly how He has called us to do it. And that is the conviction that a pastor and the leadership of a church must have.

So--style--doesn't matter. Dress--doesn't matter. Political preferences--doesn't matter. The thing we need to agree on is this--let's love Jesus with everything we've got--and love one another that way as well. That is His call on our lives--not to point out the faults that exist--but to strengthen, encourage, and build one another up.

Are we doing things right? Yes--for where we are, for our church--yes. Does this mean that other churches need to do exactly what we are doing? Nope! That's my thoughts on the matter--what are yours?

FOR DISCUSSION:  I don't really expect a whole lot of people to agree with Perry here.  Mostly, I think, because the people who agree are the one who don't post comments. What I will expect is, as Perry discusses above, a complete critique of why Perry is so off on his thinking (and how wrong he is in the way NewSpring is carrying out their Kingdom work).  There will no doubt be talk of megachurches, Rick Warren, musical style, and theological watering down.

Thanks, Perry... for putting into words my feelings.  Here's what I've been pondering.  Why is all of this so?  Why are the critics out in such mass at blogs like this one?  I've been scratching my head about this alot lately.  Many who criticize distance themselves from anything new in the church; but are very good at new technologies like blogging.  Is it like it is in most churches... that a few people are the critics; but they are make the impression that their number is much bigger than they really are?

Here's my point? It seems like the internet and blogosphere is downright jammed full of church leader critics... but I don't think their number is that big in reality.  Some will say that I'm just not dealing with reality... but I think it's true.  Rick Warren is the perfect example... how many people have read PD Life?  How many churches have done the 40 days campaigns in their churches?  Literally THOUSANDS.  Thousands of churches have run the program and speak highly of it.  But even whisper the name Rick Warren on a blog; and you're instantly inundated with only his opponents.  Yesterday, I posted on how Rick Warren had said he had repented of his sin of overlooking the AIDS epidemic.  The responses ranged from Warren wanting only the spotlight; judgement that he should've repented earlier; to charges that he's in the big drug companies' pockets.  But I guess that's just internet criticism for ya.

Any thoughts?  (and I will take the liberty to edit if need be)  smile


This post has been viewed 440 times so far.


 TRACKBACKS: (0) There are 69 Comments:

  • Posted by Todd
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 3:23 PM

    Hey… guys… whatever.

    Tried to express where I was coming from.

    But I guess growth is a bad word if you have cancer (although I thought we were talking about churches here); and that I’m deceived.

    Kinda proves Perry’s original thought.

    How about this… those that want to want to take a position against growth; or those that want to preserve a remnant; or those against any church over the size of 10; or those who need to point to Noah to say growth doesn’t always happen, or those who say that growth CANNOT be measured; that growth SHOULD NOT be measured… how about you guys just ‘do church’ as Perry puts it, your way. 

    You see, I won’t say it’s the wrong way.  I won’t say that your deceived; or that your unbiblical; or that you’re trying to use scripture to justify you lack of growth.

    But you will say that about me or anyone who thinks growth is rational and an positive expectation for any church.  That’s what this post was about.

    And, for the record, I think Perry was right.

    (I won’t be drawn into this any deeper at this point, either… sorry)

    Todd

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 3:27 PM

    I am awaiting a comment from them before I bail out.

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 3:38 PM

    Bernie,
    Did you just refer to the five purposes?  Wow I think I almost had a heart attack.  You are getting more and more fun to read.

    Ricky? Cancer???!??!!  What are you talking about?
    Todd, I think growth is a dirty word to those people who have not seen any (numberical) growth in their ministry.  And they are jealous so they say things like, “I focus on spiritual growth,” as a cop out.
    We should focus on reaching the lost and spiritual growth.  If you have not baptized any new believers or had any new people being saved in your church in awhile, you might ask yourself what you are doing.  Start being a part of what God is doing.  God is about reaching the sinners, and saving their souls.  Not potlucks and the like.  (Although I do enjoy the pot lucks.)

  • Posted by Kevin
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 4:04 PM

    Healthy organizims grow.  People, marriages and churches.  I have been in a church that was purging and believe me I would rather be in a growing church anyday.  Growth = changed lives by Christ!

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 4:16 PM

    I think many of you are missing the point thinking that thes people are “against growth” I’m not reading that they’re “against growth?”

    At any rate I’ll speak fo myself, I am all for growth.  But I’m for letting God do it with his methods, not mine. If we are obedient to him in all ways, growth will come! 

    But just as thoes who wanted to cart the ark (man-method, seemeing more effective) instead of carrying it with staves (God’s method, old fashion of course), people are wanting to grow the church by their own methods, books instead of Bible, twisted Bible versions that feel good, being silent on socially incorrect issues, etc.  All to grow in numbers, rather than seeking to obey God first!

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 4:26 PM

    Kent, Amen.

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 4:34 PM

    Kent,

    Thanks and amen…

    pdl

  • Posted by Bernie Dehler
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 4:36 PM

    Kent said:
    “people are wanting to grow the church by their own methods, books instead of Bible, twisted Bible versions that feel good, being silent on socially incorrect issues, etc. All to grow in numbers, rather than seeking to obey God first!”

    I agree.  That is the concern.  Some churches need to downsize and be shaken, like Jesus did when he overturned the tables.  They wanted to kill Him for that one!  We still have the money-changers today.  They abound, in fact.

    Likewise, in balance, we have the dead churches with Christians who are legalistic and have no life (of Christ) in them.

    We need the middle road-- life in Christ (not legalism or license).

    I like the quote:
    “If God is your co-pilot, change seats.”

    He needs to be Lord, the driver, and we need to seek Him and His direction… rather than looking to our own great creative ability… which much of the church growth industry can be guilty of.

    I love that “ME” worship video because it is so true, and convicting:

    http://www.mmiblog.com/monday_morning_insight_we/2005/11/me_worship.html

    ...Bernie

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 4:42 PM

    Jeff said: “If numbers are important to God shouldn’t they be to us?

    Bill: Yeah Jeff they should be but you will never accept the very real fact that churches in America have for years equated “decisions” for Christ to Salvation when in fact the numbers of a major denomination showed that in the early 90’s of their 294,000+ “decisions” they counted throughout the year that only approx. 14,000 of these were in fellowship and accounted for - 95%+ unaccounted for. And even though there are churches that a bursting at the seams with weekly congregants - this is in no way indicative of God pleasing growth or True conversions, were that the case Jesus would have said something to the effect of “some will come to me on that day” but rather than that he said “MANY will come to me on that day” to whom He will say “Depart from me, I never knew you”. In other words all your professions of loving Him, all your “miracles” and “wonders” were not of Him but they were actually the delusions of a man or woman. What a sobering idea, one which I have a strong confidence is not preached with regularity from the pulpits of PD or WCA churches aggressively seeking growth in numbers rather than obedience to the word of God.

    Jeff you also should note that it was God who added those to the church that were saved, and also it should be noted what the message of Peter was that day. This fact about 1st century Christianity is ignored by many - that many of the early Christians paid the full price for their faith in that they lost their lives for it, what’s different for us, now, because we live in the US? Luke 9:23 is the same as it was then, it never changes, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”

    In Christ,
    Bill

  • Posted by Franklin Reeves
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 5:41 PM

    I think that no one is against a church growing. In fact a church that is declining in a population area that is growing might be a sign of problems.

    I see is not as a problem with style of music. It is not about being culturally relevant, the culrutre has not changes sin is still sin, hell is still hell, and God is still God.

    The problem is are we obeying Christ and witnessing to our friends, fmaily, neighbors, co-workers, and strangers.

    If you are not persoanlly doing it, and have no desire to do it, then their is a problem.

    A chruch of believers doing that will grow.

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 6:06 PM

    {bishop hugs Todd in an affectionate yet manly way}
    I like your postings that start all these discussions Todd. I am frustrated with the Christian forum/blog world because it always comes down to the camps expressed here and that frustrate you so much. And they always divide on the same lines. Nothing new under the sun. Our values drive us. And anything that violates our values makes us want to fight. Though it frustrates me, due to your wide array of topics, I’m staying.
    I also agree with you--if all you are is “against” whatever the subject is, and you are one of those who usually manage to steer things back to Warren, Hybels, and the heresy du jour, can’t you guys get together and start up the “Ihatepurposedriven.com” blog where everyl issue can always be traced back to Saddleback? If not, at least review Dilbert’s rules for blogging.

  • Posted by Pastor Al
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 6:53 PM

    One said: “I am all for growth. But I’m for letting God do it with his methods, not mine. If we are obedient to him in all ways, growth will come!”

    Let’s take the first part:  We are “God’s Method.”

    “Go out into the world and make disciples.” “Through the foolishness of preaching...” “Philip caught up to the Ethiopian ‘do you know what you are reading?’” “Moses, I have called you to deliver my people…” “Jeremiah go to my people and say…” “Some are called to be Evangelist, Teachers, Prophets…”

    God’s method is to work through humans to testify to his grace and salvation and if we don’t fulfill our gifting(s) and responsibility to do this – then the rocks will cry out! I hate to say it but the naysayer of doing all one can to reach the lost, sound more like they are speaking out of “success-envy” then “truth.”

    Now the second part:  Here’s a thought – Obedience to God maybe is the very reason “Warren” has had success.  Men of great faith tend to see great things happen.  Maybe for those of us who see measured results in our lives should point the light of condemnation inward and ask about our lack of faith in God instead dumping on Rick Warren.

    IMHO,
    Pastor Al

  • Posted by Franklin Reeves
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 7:05 PM

    I for one do not like talking about Warren and Hybels all the time.

    I like to talk about issues facing the church, however there is more to being Christians than growing a church.

    Do Pastors ever talk about helping individuals becomemore Christ like on a personal basis not by their program or books.

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 8:10 PM

    Todd listen to yourself:

    Why are you here, pdl? Seriously. If you think this is a waste of time and everything we do here is ‘sorry’, then, honestly… why are you here?

    You see, if you don’t agree with much of anything here; and all you are able to do is object; then it’d be great for you to find a blog place ‘to call home’ (because this isn’t it!)

    Not to sound harsh… but I wonder why some stick around.

    The same in the church… there are some people that just stick around… they hate everything about the church… but they still come. And complain.

    It’s like you’re saying: “Why don’t you just leave man.. leave!  Get out of here… I don’t like you and nobody else does either.”

    I mean is that LOVE???  It sounds more like a fit or tantrem like my kids used to have… I don’t mean to be harsh Todd (just like you don’t) BUT You’re losing it… you’re holding on to GOD’S ministry to tight… let it go… assume He is in control!  PDL will vanish as will I ... time always proves this… BUT Truth never vanishes and is never in vain!!!

    There will come a day when I will conclude, I’ve said enough.  I can no longer cast nets.

    Right now though, it’s a great opportunity to test church leaders.  Are “you” (church leader) really teaching THE Truth!  Isn’t this a great and noble question?  Why wouldn’t we be willing (as Christians and LEADERS at that) to really WANT/DESIRE to KNOW this!!!???

    It’s just not love to see someone who calls themself a Brother in Christ and be in Scriptural error and NOT say anything.  It is evil to do this!  In fact, Scripture teaches that we should not only do this but if they don’t repent consider them not to be what they claim to be “a Brother in Christ”.

    I’ll respond more late… take time to consider feelings and emotions. grin

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 8:49 PM

    [You see… I think I have a problem with this one. I’m not saying that you aren’t correct, and that this wasn’t God’s purpose for your church… but I am saying that this is something that I have a hard time understanding.  Without knowing more about your church’s situation, I couldn’t reckon a fair opinion.]

    It’s not knowing more about the church’s situation that will give understanding Todd, the answer is in Scripture.  Remnant or “Elect” is taught as Sound Doctrine throughout Scripture.

    [But my past experience has shown this about ‘remnants’:]

    Lets not base Truth on experience but Scripture.  Experiences can be misleading.

    [The ‘remnants’ are usually described as those who are left after some kind of fallout.]

    You mean like Abraham and Lot.  The Wilderness.  Gideon. etc… Yes, and it is usually “those” who God is doing HIS work through (no glory to man).

    [Speaking as one of the remnants; you’ve already declared that you feel the group are with now were the right ones in the situation.]

    To be declared Elect is to understand Scripture and understanding this point of Scripture defines The Remnant.

    It is not I who declared me Elect, it is God so, in the end, if I hold to Scripture as the Highest Authority and do what Scripture says then it will always be “Right” (just maybe not in mans eyes - because there is a way which SEEMS right… and/or “lean not on your own understanding").

    [And you feel that God’s purpose for your church was to preserve your group of believers. “Preserve” just sounds so cold and stale to me.]

    It IS what ALL of Scripture teaches no matter how “cold” (or what is usually said “not fair") it sounds.

    [theological problems (although that’s not a main reason), I don’t know why God lets these things happen. That’s why I’m glad that He’s God and I’m not.]

    We SHOULD split over Theological issues and it should be our main reason (sometimes personal opinions get in the way - as with Barnabus and Paul) BUT Knowing God is of PRIMARY importance and if we don’t split over this, what else matters for us to split over?  The color of carpet?

    God decrees these things (all things) to happen for the sake of Justice and Mercy (His Charachter and Nature) among others.

    [What loss of potential]

    Who’s potential?  If God allowed or decreed it and He’s in charge, don’t you assume He is able to reach even them… if it is His Will?

    [Most of them have moved on to churches that are making a real mark in the community… growing… vibrant in their witness… active in the community.]

    “Real mark"… So what if God allowed that to happen, even decreed it, then what would your statement conclude:  God isn’t doing it right???

    [So what some people look at as God’s purpose; others look at as a bleak existence. (I’m just trying to be honest here). Both cannot be true.]

    THANK YOU TODD!  For being honest… Finally, we’re getting to it… What if you assume that God is completely in control and actually Willed for the split to happen, how would that effect your view of the people who look at it as “a bleak existence”?  Of course it is going to depend on which side of the split you’re on but for the sake of this discussion assume you are one of the “elect”.

    In love,
    BeHim.

    P.S.  [But I guess growth is a bad word if you have cancer (although I thought we were talking about churches here); and that I’m deceived.]

    Great statement Todd… if the church does indeed have a cancer (leven) it would indeed be a bad thing, wouldn’t it?

    [How about this… those that want to want to take a position against growth; or those that want to preserve a remnant; or those against any church over the size of 10; or those who need to point to Noah to say growth doesn’t always happen, or those who say that growth CANNOT be measured; that growth SHOULD NOT be measured… how about you guys just ‘do church’ as Perry puts it, your way.]

    Because that is not love.  As though being a Christian is different for everyone or there is more than one Truth to every view.  It’s wrought in relativism.

    [You see, I won’t say it’s the wrong way. I won’t say that your deceived; or that your unbiblical; or that you’re trying to use scripture to justify you lack of growth.]

    No you won’t, you’ll find someone else who does (egotistical, narrow minded, wrong, legalistic, etc) and post their article.

    BTW Bill is the church growth addict article your acticle?

    *******COMMENT ADDED BELOW BY TODD********
    This is written after writing my comment below and reading this, BeHim’s latest comment.

    BeHim,

    That will be quite enough.  You are out of line.  And you’ve crossed the line before.  This will be the end.

    I know that you will think the worst of me; that I am not accepting of the truth from you; or that I am running away from scripture. I am not. But I will not continue to take abuse from you here.

    Maybe we can get together over a cup of coffee in heaven and discuss how silly and foolish all this was.

    Hey folks… I’m not looking for anyone to side with me on anything… but if you go back and look at the original post; and then see where we ended up (once again!)… it just goes to prove Perry’s original thoughts.

    But obviously, that’s just my opinion.

    I could be wrong… and according to many, I am.

    smile

    Todd

  • Posted by Todd
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 8:56 PM

    BeHim,

    Just like Perry’s church (original post) isn’t for everyone… neither is this blog.

    I’ve never said I don’t like anyone.

    But, that being said, this blog, just like Perry’s church, isn’t for everyone.

    All I’m saying is that if certain people find that they disagree with most everything I post here; why do they stay?

    Would I rather people leave?  Quite honestly… yeah. If they don’t want to talk about the things I want to talk about; or if they disagree with everything I bring up here at my blog, then yeah… I would expect them to move on rather than constantly trying to drive the bus here.

    You see, there’s a difference between constructive discussion about ministry issues and constantly arguing with anything I post.

    If you’re leading a business meeting, for instance, and there are 8 people in the room and 3 of them object with everything the boss says, ALL THE TIME, the meeting will not be a good meeting.

    Let’s say you’re leading a meeting at church and there are 10 people there; but 3 of them disagree with everything you say or propose.  And that they do this over and over and over again.  It is frustrating to say the least.

    That’s where I am.

    I know the target I am trying to reach.

    Some of you aren’t in it.

    (There… how’s that for blunt?)

    Does it mean I’m not showing love?  Absolutely not.  I respect you all greatly; but some of you who constantly bemoan everything we talk about here need to find another outlet.

    I think that’s a loving way to put it.

    There’re alot of blogs out there who sympathize with many of your positions.  Search them out.  Be a blessing there.

    That way, this place will be a place where iron truly does sharpen iron, instead of a place of fighting and quarreling over the same anti-megachurch; anti-Rick Warren; anti-you-name-it-whatever-I-post-here blog.

    That’s my deep wish.

    Todd

  • Posted by Perry
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 9:48 PM

    HOLY COW! 

    This one got crazy quick, didn’t it? 

    Thank’s Todd for keeping things under control.

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 9:48 PM

    Hey Todd.  You know...if I had been in your place...I may not even have lasted as long as you have in finally getting fed up.  And I rarely disagree with you or whatever article you post...so I know we’re on the same page.  But just like you said, I get the feeling there is a silent majority who agrees with you and loves bouncing ideas off each other yet stay away after about the 10th post because it all ends up in the same place.  I learned my lesson a few days ago.  But some of these guys who are so insistent on demonizing proven, Godly leaders generally only discredit themselves more and more in many of our eyes.  So in that sense...I’d suggest just letting them do their thing and just start reading the author of a comment before taking anything they say with more than a grain of salt.  I’m just not sure it’s possible to have such a highly popular blog without these people.

    And besides...pdl kept me pretty sharp and on my toes the other day about organs replacing guitars.  I may not agree with him, but he forced me to stay on top of my game.  And for that I’m grateful.

    You rock Todd.

    Go take a nap or something though...smile

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 10:19 PM

    farewell, this is my last post on the MMI blog...I do pray God’s richest blessings on you all...see you when Jesus splits the eastern sky and comes in great Glory and Power...may our Redeemer be forever praised...may the Name of Jesus Christ be exalted and may His Kingdom come!!!!!!!!!!

    pdl

  • Posted by Todd
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 10:22 PM

    Thanks, pdl… I’ll look forward to that day, honestly!

    God bless you, brother.

    Todd

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 10:38 PM

    Hey PDL we need some more thinkers like you over at Raiders your more than welcome, and yes my blog is a blog for everyone

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 10:51 PM

    Hey Ian, can you provide the url where your blog can be found?

    Thanks.

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 10:54 PM

    rotlc.blogspot.com

  • Posted by Todd
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 10:58 PM

    Hey Ian…

    I’m a reader of your blog too, believe it or not. (notice, I said reader and not poster) smile To this point you don’t have a lot of seeker-sensitive, pro-rick warren types leaving a lot of comments on your blog… so be careful what you wish for!  smile

    Ricky and pdl… Ian’s blog would be a great example of a place where you might feel more at home.  BeHim as well, I would think.  Making that your blog home would be a logical move it would seem.

    BTW, Ian… who are you, really?  You’re not really that creepy guy in your picture are you?

    Todd

  • Posted by
    Friday, December 02, 2005 at 11:07 PM

    Todd,

    Wow I thought Tin Elzea was my only reader, Do me a favor sometime, drop a comment, I would be honored, hey you may even find something you agree with you never know, now after the Santa/Jesus picture I saw here are you in a position to call someone else picture creepy?  Anyway, Peace

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