uh… that was my friend bernie’s. 

I thought twice about posting it; but left it up to his discretion.

Todd

[The Right Way to Do Church]

I agree with PDL on this one, we don’t “do” church as though it’s lunch or coffee, we ARE “The” church.  Of course, there are some who are the church and others who may assume they are (Lord, Lord...).

[I have noticed in the world of the internet a quite lively debate over “the right way” to do church. In my mind this is a DANGEROUS place to be--declaring that one way is right and every other way is wrong.]

If we assume we “do” church then yes, there are many ways to “do” lunch or “do” coffee so it would be natural to assume there are as many flavors and choices to “do” church BUT

If we assume we ARE the Church then there is really only one way to BE the Church.

I hope you understand this Perry, Scripture teaches that we ARE the Church.

[My point is that people get trapped into thinking that there is one way to do church--and if other churches are NOT doing church that way then they are WRONG. And to take that even further...the people in the churches that feel as if they are right openly criticize and condemn...and some have even staged protests outside of other churches.]

So you don’t think anyone (yourself included) should criticize or condemn.

[Uh, somehow I am not thinking that is what Jesus meant when He called us to love one another AND to make disciples.]

Depends on how we’re going to “view” love… through the eyes of autonomy or through the eyes of Sovereignty.  True Love isn’t relative it is Absolute.

[People ask me, “Is the way NewSpring doing church the RIGHT way.” My response is always, “No, it is a different way!"]

Which this “different way” may OR may not be scripturally wrong… How do we KNOW for sure???  Again, the assumption of “doing” church REALLY confuses things so assume Scripture is right when it says we ARE the Church and that helps shed some light on a “different way”.

[There are so many different people in this world...and it is going to take so many different styles to reach them.]

Later in your article you say it isn’t about “style” but here you’re saying style is important to even so much as to individuality.  I of course, disagree but I would, at the very least, say your statement is very transparent on revealing your true understanding and belief in Scripture.

[To claim that there is ONE worship style that is right is both narrow minded and egotistical. And to attack people who ARE NOT compromising the Gospel...but are also NOT compromising Scripture is both arrogant and wrong.]

You just stated early on in your article that “anyone” should (not) criticize or condemn and now you turn around and start calling names (the worst kind of criticism because it shows severe weakness):  narrow minded, egotistical, arrogant and wrong.

If you don’t mind, I would like to suggest there IS one way to worship God and it is not on “this mountain or that mountain but in TRUTH and SPIRIT!” The verse also implies that it is NOT one or the other or either.. it is BOTH.  If one is lacking (Truth or The Spirit) it’s highly probable the other is too… no matter how loudly or clearly a person, group or church “says” they have both the Truth and the Spirit, the ONLY clear way for us to know for sure is to test it (the message/teaching) or them (the person, group or church) with Scripture.  Does that make sense?

[#1 - Is It Growing?  Jesus called us to reach people--period. Healthy things grow--period. And NO ONE can make a BIBLICAL case for a church remaining small & not caring about the community in which it exists.]

I would suggest Biblical Discipleship is a great place for true growth to take place (of course as long as the person isn’t holding to a false teaching, like Benny Hinn… then we would have a bunch of false teachers).

There are thousands in Benny Hinn services, millions who watch TBN… therefore, it must be healthy???  We can’t really justify using “growth” as our method of testing the validity or Truth of a ministry, especially not the “#1” way of knowing.

There are too many better ways to test a ministry for its validity and/or Truth, number 1 being, Scripture.

If we’re going to suggest it works for us (Christians), it would have to be said for them too (Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, etc) which then would suggest they are doing what God is calling them to do also.

I suggest using Scripture first because it eliminates those who are false teachers.

I thing a good test is watching for those who avoids Scriptural discussions and Biblical Teachings, because it sheds some light on who or what is their authority for Truth.

If someone who believes in Scripture teaches that it’s okay for people to disagree about The Gospel, Salvation and Sovereignty because it means something different to every person and the Spirit works different in each individual.  Which is to say, there is no One Truth for ALL, it’s all relative to the individual, and then I would say, it speaks volumes about their view of Scriptural authority.

Does that make sense?

[I hear it from time to time, “We’re small--but we love each other and it is our call to minister to one another.” That is a partial truth...it is A PART of our call...but another part is to go and reach people for Christ. A church that is inward focused & gives the community the middle finger and tells them to go to hell is not doing it right--period.]

Are you suggesting it is the “WRONG” way to “do” church or is it just a “different way to do church”?

Let’s say it is “wrong"… on what authority is it wrong?  Scripture clearly teaches Discipleship; an “inward focus”.

Why do you assume that because a church disciples it’s Believers ("inward focus") it is wrong and gives the community the “middle finger” and telling them to “go to hell”.

How critical and by far one of the more condemning statements ever posted on this blog.  This flies directly in the face of your plea for “anyone” to (not) be critical or condemning.  I’m sure you’ll repent but maybe you should consider editing too.

[It’s not about the style of worship either. There is a church right up the road in Easley that is growing like mad--and they are as traditional as they come. We must be VERY careful NEVER to confuse methodology with theology!]

You just said it was about the style to reach individuals and later say it is not about the style and here again, not about the style… which is it?  You’re confusing plus, I would suggest that perhaps you have confused methodology and theology.  Much of what you’ve said so far is really based on methods and in many cases opinion and very little has been based on Scripture.

[#2 - Is It Scriptural?
I say win the game no matter what--but if a team is caught cheating the ref throws a flag. I am all for doing whatever it takes to reach people; however, Scripture must never be compromised.]

Scripture should be our authority but I’m not sure you’re fully on board with ‘Sola Scriptura’, you have allot of holes/errors in your theology (based on some of your posts… not trying to be TOO critical, but it is an observation)

[#3 - Is It Engaging?
I think there is one word to describe a church that is boring--SIN!]

I think this is 100% based on your opinion Perry.  If Scripture teaches this clearly and in context, let’s go to the chapter and verse and discuss it.

I think you would be clearly compromising Scripture if you preached this from the pulpit.

[Look at it this way--God is not boring. He invented laughter. He invented the sunset. He’s the One who developed the concept of sex! (Thank you Jesus!) ]

We (pastors/church leaders) don’t (or shouldn’t) interpret Scripture through our “view” (i.e… look at this way).

I would recommend sticking to historical hermeneutic principles to interpret and apply Scripture Perry, this one statement alone frightens me about not only your teaching but your stability as a preacher.

Please allow me the opportunity to explain… Bringing sex and laughter into a teaching (if indeed you would teach this from the pulpit) causes me great concern… the laughter “movement” had people laughing and giggling, I hope this isn’t a ‘sex and laughter’ movement.  Great concern!

BTW.  Can sin be exciting?  So just because something is exciting doesn’t mean its right and likewise, just because something is “boring” doesn’t mean it is wrong.

Scriptural Authority and proper hermeneutical principles are so much more valuable and important than the “here’s my view of Scripture” STYLE of teaching.  Just be careful Perry and all of us (myself included), in avoiding such methods.

[And Jesus--He was not a boring dude. He was always telling stories...and wherever He went there was this crowd that followed Him. (So much for keeping it small!) And when He walked on the water...or turned water into wine--trust me--he engaged people.]

Telling stories and having a crowd present is what makes a church exciting and not boring, i.e...sinful. Also, performing miracles is something else we should add to the list for making things exciting at our church because it engages people.

Could this style of interpretation of Scripture lead to inviting Benny Hinn because he brings “excitement” and engages people???

I would hope not but… imagine what might happen if a person started doing real, earth shattering miracles like walking into a hospital and curing everyone or feeding a million people with a couple of cans of food or raising the dead… how many would flock?  AND, does Scripture say anything of such things???

[And the Holy Spirit--one good read through Acts chapter two will highlight the fact that when He moves it is completely obvious!]

One good read through 1 John highlights the fact that there are many spirits and they should be “tested” with Scripture.

Emotionalism, symbolism and mysticism are effective and efficient tools of the enemy, for deceiving even the best of “spiritual” churches.

[And the Bible--this is the most exciting book ever written. There are stories of war, romance, kings and queens, you name it--it’s in there.]

The Bible also teaches death, eternal punishment and gnashing of teeth - where Jesus Himself said many will go that do things in His Name… (would these be considered the boring parts???).

[Unfortunately I know of many churches who have taken God, Jesus, the Spirit, and the Bible and made them the most boring and irrelevant things on the planet.]

I know of many churches that have taken God, Jesus, The Spirit and The Bible and completely changed Their Character and Attributes to make them more relativ… I mean relevant. Trying to be gentle here with the “generalities”.

[God is NOT boring--His Bride should not be either!]

No, He is Sovereign, no matter how boring it may seem to some to think such things of a Loving God.

[These three questions are things that I use to evaluate this ministry.]

I would use one question to test any ministry:  Are they Scripturally Sound.

How high up on the list should the Authority of Scripture be?

[To be honest, I don’t have time to go around and inspect other people, churches, and ministries, take the time to listen to the messages that the teachers in that church does, read all the things that comes out of that church]

I would suggest you SHOULD take the time to inspect yourself and all of your ministries that you are responsible to God for and suggest you use Scripture to do it.  In fact, I would suggest you invite someone outside of your ministry that is Sound in Doctrine and understanding of Scriptures to come and inspect you and your ministries.

[and then criticize that ministry through random e-mails and blog comments. (I would argue that a person who does have time for that needs a few things...such as a job...)]

Again, you’re being critical of those being critical when you’ve been one of the most critical authors to date.

So you’re willing to “argue” over a person needing to get a job because in your opinion he/she/they have too much time on their hands???

Yet, you have no time to argue over properly inspecting messages (teachings) of people, in or out of your ministry.

Wow Perry, that’s quiet, a statement… Maybe you could hire one of these highly critical people to scripturally test a ministry for you.

[I know we are not perfect--we never will be.]

Will we be perfect in Christ at His coming?

Purity (requiring a synergistic work between Christ and I) is the goal, not perfection (at least here on earth).

[I tell this church often that as long as I am the pastor that things will probably be screwed up around here.]

I would have to agree, at least from a Scriptural and Theological view.

[However, I believe with all of my heart that we are doing exactly what Jesus has called us to do...and that we are doing it exactly how He has called us to do it.]

We can believe in beliefs all we want but guess what; if it is scripturally wrong then it is indeed wrong completely.

Lucifer BELIEVES he will be like the Most High but guess what… he is indeed completely wrong!

Scripture teaches the demons believe and they tremble and in 1 cor. 15 Scripture states that we can “believe in vain”

It’s not about OUR belief; it is about Scripture guiding our belief.

Our belief should be molded by Scripture but it’s all too often that many would rather hold so tightly to their belief than to conform to the Scripture.

[And that is the conviction that a pastor and the leadership of a church must have.]

They should be convicted by Scripture so I have to ask, when a professing Christian is not convicted, what could that say about their discernment, authority and understanding???

[So--style--doesn’t matter.]

I figured Todd would disagree with this.  BTW… this is the part I was referring to you contradicting earlier.

[Let’s love Jesus with everything we’ve got--and love one another that way as well.  That is His call on our lives--not to point out the faults that exist--but to strengthen, encourage, and build one another up.]

Did Jesus love Peter when He said “get behind me”.. did Jesus love Peter when He mentioned to him that “Satan has desired to sift you"… did Jesus love Peter when He said he would deny Him three times?  Did Jesus love Peter when He asked him to feed His sheep?

Did Paul love Peter when he reproved him?  Does Paul love The Church (the people of God) when he instructs Timothy to convince, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering?

Would any of these be considered “pointing out faults”???  Convincing (with Scripture), rebuking (with Scripture) and exhorting (with Scripture) are ALL considered encouragements that build one another up, to those who love Him and His Word.

[Are we doing things right? Yes--for where we are, for our church--yes.]

I suppose every church could make the same statement but wouldn’t that lead to something like “every church did that which was right in their own eyes”

[Does this mean that other churches need to do exactly what we are doing? Nope!]

Thankfully not all do but unfortunately many have… but I guess that’s why there are so many doing mostly what you “do” and because there is “strength in numbers” (or as you would imply, “health in numbers") that would “make it right”.

[That’s my thoughts on the matter--what are yours?]

I would suggest you test yourself and your ministries with Scripture or better yet have someone from outside your ministry and preferably someone Sound in Doctrine and Biblically Wise test you and your ministry.

[Thanks, Perry… for putting into words my feelings.]

Great choice of words Todd.

[THOUSANDS.  Thousands of churches have run the program and speak highly of it.]

Health in numbers therefore, it must be right.  (the same pragmatic view Perry would hold to with “health in numbers")

Lol.. it didn’t look that long on my 81/2x11 MSWord doc… it is long, sorry.

BeHim: Hello my dear brother. I want to know something brother. On the blog of the MegaChurch pastors express regret, that I just read a few minutes ago. I do believe that you insulted me by saying,
1)"Jeff I am sorry to hear that you have been a Christian for 30 yrs and that you are still a babe”
But yet you want to try and correct Todd and everyone else that they are not loving and doing everything in love. Excuse me dear brother but isn’t that the kettle calling the pot black.
2)BeHim:Solomon said, “there is a time to speak and a time to be quite.”
3)He also said,"To keep your ears open and your mouth shut. Dont be a fool who doesn’t even realize it is sinful to make rash promises to God, for he is in heaven and your are only here on earth, so let your words be few. Just as being to busy gives you nightmares, so being a fool makes you a babblermouth.”

To Bill: Good morning buddy. How are you? I just wanted to tell you that I love you and I am glad that we have become friends. The Lord laid this on my heart to tell you. I would assume that you and I are just like Peter & Paul. The reason I say that is they both agreed to disagree and Peter even said that the teachings of Paul was hard to understand. With that said I stand and applaud you and have the utmost respect for you.
I read your comments and I must say that you are right to a point. However, with that said do not judge all churches with doing that. At Forks of Elkhorn we are having anywhere between 150- 250 join a year. BUT! give me a minute. Some of them came there and joined for the wrong reasons. They would not come there when we were in the Old building were it was cramp and tight. They came to the new though as soon as the doors opened. Yep! you guessed they jumped on the bandwagon. But we have and are having anywhere from 90- 120 a year come to know the Lord. These are souls that have been saved. How many actually accepted the Lord. I hope all of them. But God knows those who have truly accepted him and those who have not. To me Bill God is the one who seperates the goats and sheep. He did not give me that Job.
As for denying ones self and following after him daily. I have been doing that for the past nine years. There have been times I have wanted to quit but I do not because I love him. Chuchk Swindol said,"You can love the Lord and not serve him, and you can serve him and not love him.” The way I see it is like this Bill, Jesus went the distance for me, the day he took that terrible beating for me, was made to pack his cross down that street, all the way to Calvary. He did that because he loved me. Now it is my turn Bill. Ever since I was 6mo. old I have had to struggle with life and what it throws at me. But do you know why I made it throw Bill. Because of him. At 6mo. old I developed Epilepsy, there were two times when I was two yrs old they brought me back. I suffered with this until I was thirteen. God healed me. How? Because when I was ten years old Bill, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I heard my grandmother say,"the lord is going to heal Jeff, now that he is christian.” My mom said, “No Mom, it does not work that way.” Well he could.” No. I was standing there at the door and in my ten yr old heart said,"I believe.” Now I have Parkinson and before they diagnosed me, I would lay in bed with my body drenched in pain, hand curled up, arm muscles tight, leg cramping and tight, calf muscle the same way. My wife was like why don’t he heal you. No I said, His grace is sufficent. I said this whispering and stuttering because it had taken over my voice. As I laid there Bill I thought about Jesus, and the day he was on the cross. He knows my pain. Is this a little of how he felt on that day. My wife said what do I do Jeff, what do I do. I said, first go pray. tell him how you feel, ask him to strenthen me.Ask him for his will to be done. Ask him for forgiveness. Then get the bible and read Psalms 23 & Psalms 91. She did that. Less than an hour later I was better. You see Bill He is all I have to go on. But since then I have always done what he ask me to do. If he said jeff, go out in the street stand on your head and twirl around for an hour I would do it.

Pastor Al: Right on brother.

Todd: Bring pdl back brother… I mean heck man he got on my last nerve to like on BeHim did. But I still learn from them. I am making plans to find were some of them live and making plans to visit them this summer. Why? Because I cherish them and love them. And I want to meet them face to face, and spend the day with them and get to know them better.

Be church. Do church… That whole argument is so old and so stale. If I may… When we say “do church” we mean the specific tasks, methodolgies, and styles that we use in our services, et al. OF COURSE those of us who use that expression mean that we should “be the church”. Of course! Let’s get past this semantic difficulty so that we can discuss the topics! Sometimes I feel like every time we post on this forum we need to give dictionary definitions of our terms.

And Todd, thanks for your response to that INCREDIBLY lengthy post. Hey everybody! Keep it to two paragraphs, or three, maybe, shall we? How many people do you think actually read the whole thing if you post a dissertation!

Have a little grace everybody!
Peter

To all on MMIBlog…. I am in error for repaying an evil implication:

[A church that is inward focused & gives the community the middle finger and tells them to go to hell is not doing it right--period.] {IMPLYING a church that disciples Believers in some way is not serving the community but in fact not even being Christians at all.}

then I respond in sinful anger (evil) with my long “blow by blow” post.  I am wrong and in error, please forgive me.

I would like to say to Perry (and to others) that compromising Scripture includes interpreting Scripture through a pragmatic ‘style’ “It’s working for me (us) and I’m (we’re) going to do it because it’s what I (we) believe god is calling me (us) to do” of interpretation.

I’ve Scripturally corrected this view many times because it leads people astray by believing there is another authority besides Scripture and they end up practicing through a “it is right in my view” type of practical life style, which is closely related to the Scriptures: Judges 17:6; 18:1(very “relative” to today); 21:25.

I’ve discussed how important it is to follow Scripture and will now heed my own advice and follow the Word of the Lord to “shake the dust”

I’m done throwing “blows” (Proverbs 17) and falling into sin by allowing my emotion and anger to enter into my hope of instruction and deceiving myself that I’m just being zealous simply because statements are made from a pragmatic interpretation of Scripture.  I have indeed played the fool and for this I am sorry, please forgive me.  I will do better at holding things back, Lord Willing.  Proverbs 29:11
A fool vents all his feelings, but a wise man holds them back.

So with that, I’ll bid goodbye and accept a well deserved invitation for such an emotional response wrought in error and sin, to exit stage right.

For those who still care to talk, please email me anytime.  The Lord BE Glorified!

You know the reason why you guys disagree with every little thing with each other is because your premises are different. If premises disagree, then everything disagrees. You shouldn’t read these critics as just arguing for argument sake. It is clear that your views of what the Church IS and its PURPOSE are different. It’s sad that there does seem to be such a poor understanding of theological premises that critics are simply excommunicated by those who will not allow their premises to be questioned too deeply; but this confirms my analysis of the whole consumeristic/arminian driven church and its inability to evaluate itself in any meaningful way. “Although their numbers be like the sands as the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.”

I guess it does come down to what the purpose of the church is.

What we believe that to be determines everything else we say and do about it.

I also assume that what we believe the purpose of the local church is heavily influenced by what we believe the Church of Christ or the body of Christ is here for.

That would make an interesting discussion.

[I guess it does come down to what the purpose of the church is.

What we believe that to be determines everything else we say and do about it.

I also assume that what we believe the purpose of the local church is heavily influenced by what we believe the Church of Christ or the body of Christ is here for.

That would make an interesting discussion.]

I agree Franklin and although it will be heated at time, I honestly believe THIS IS the discussion we SHOULD have.

Set rules so people know going in, it will be upsetting (afterall, testing a belief that may have been believed for decades, is HARD to test) and that sometimes it takes time and prayer to “Selah” (consider it, think about it, talk it over with God).

A dear friend of mine was having such a hard time with testing his beliefs (assumed truth) that at one point, he laid the book he was reading across his chest while laying in bed and prayed..."Lord, this is so against everything I’ve been taught and learned that I don’t know if I can let go.... but if it’s True, please help me to know for sure and walk in your Truth and not in my belief.” I say this to Glorify the True and Living God that we may Know Absolute Truth and be confident in HIM!

Also, AMEN!
[On the whole boring issue, Christians do not get bored by the amount of time listening to scripture preached.]

Side Note:
I started to think about the terms relevance and relevant because they are such hot buttons and decided to look them up:
relevance
Pertinence to the matter at hand.
Applicability to social issues: a governmental policy lacking relevance.

relevant
Having a bearing on or connection with the matter at hand.

Two things I notice; 1. They must have an object to relate to (person, place or thing) and 2. Social issues.

One reason perhaps many say it is called today a “social gospel”.
Just FIY

Debra,

Leaving a church is always painful.  Having done so once while lay people, and watching people leave from a staff perspective, I’d suggest these three things at least.

1. Don’t just disappear.  Meet with the pastor and let him know why in a respectful way and without threats (we’re gonna leave if you don’t . . .).

2. You also have a responsibility to tell some of the families you’ve been close to, but find a way to do so without trying to make your issues their issues.

3. That said, don’t air all your reasons for public consumption.  God may be leading you to leave, but He’s not leading everyone in the same way.  Except for the group you feel a responsibility to communicate with, leave quietly.  Everyone who knows you doesn’t need to know why you are leaving.  Yes, there will be speculation, but correcting it is not your responsibility. God will protect your reputation and He’ll protect your church.

It’s clear you love your church even as you leave it.  That is evidence of your commitment to people and protecting kingdom ministry.

Blessings - Wendi