Temple Grad Here.  My Father in Law is almost ready to send the Biography of Dr. Lee Roberson to publishers.  (He was not a TTU grad, but a Journalism major at Ohio State, so it will not be a 100% celestial look, as some fundamentlaist Bios are.)

Dr. Roberson was truly a pioneer.  What we some time joke about today (Bus ministries, The Old Fashioned stuff) was cutting edge 30 and 40 years ago when He was leading the way.  He was a many of integrity.

In an open letter FROM a pastor…

“dear _______” How are YOU doing at confronting your brother in love when you know that they are living in sin right next door to you?  Has your wife forgiven you for being such an unthoughtful and painfully ‘honest’ father at home?  How are you doing at “being holy as your Father in Heaven is holy?” How are you doing at loving your “neighbor as yourself?” How are you doing at visiting the imprisoned, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (BTW there are a few in Moorhead), and at removing the plank from your own eye before pointing to your brother’s faults? 

Please send a written (and then video taped live) detailed - yet concise - answer to each of these questions along with culturally acceptable written proof and convincing and supporting testimonials include several funny/entertaining and memorable illustrations from your own personal study each week for the next year and a half so that I can review your presentation (if/when I get around to it) ask my best friends what they think about it and then criticize you publicly (yet anonamously) for your incompetence.  Only after the complete process will I then attack your obviously shallow and hedonistic motives which belie your true secret obsessions with immorality

Then after this process is complete and I have forced you and your family to seek a new career and residency in a distant location I will tell you hoe “I THINK YOU ARE TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYONE ELSE.”

Just a thought....

Lovingly,

Somebody’s pastor

Fair go! Asking a pastor whether a member of his congregation has demonstrated any meaningful spiritual growth in the past year is an ENTIRELY reasonable question. Even more so when Warren chose to raise the issue in the media for his own gain (it’s a bit like celebrities courting media one day and demanding their privacy the next ... ridiculous!).

In contrast, your three questions are indeed NOT the “same”; they are in no way biblically-based or reasonable. They are instead a heavy-handed and rather fascecious defence of a high profile champion of liberalism. The two-fold culture of liberalism and celebrity is alive and well in the American church and perhaps this is the problem with it. I favour a return to reliance upon Scripture and humility.

If the Holy Spirit of God is at work in a person’s life then he or she will be committed to the teachings of Scripture and we ought to expect a process of sanctification to be evident. If Warren is claiming Mr Murdock is saved and that he is his pastor then Warren is (according to the Bible) responsible for the oversight of his spiritual formation. In such a high profile and high stakes case it is entirely reasonable to seek confirmation of his claims ... millions follow the teachings of a man who may be willing to say “just about anything” in order to sell a book!

And Andrew,

what do you mean by “liberalism”? If you mean championing the rights of the poor and downtrodden, I’d like to be called a liberal please.

Andrew…

Answer to point 1 of yours, as a pastor I’m responsible for the spiritual well-being and growth of my congregation, yes… but in the public forum that you are implying? By way of a blog entry by someone who is openly hostile to me to begin with? Sorry, I don’t buy it. So what if RW says somebody goes to his church, it doesn’t merit the kind of statement that was made in the original post by an “open letter in a blog entry” by someone who is openly and unfairly (imho) hostile to Warren. I’ll have to remember the next time I say so-and-so goes to my church to make sure I qualify that by saying “and I can prove he’s growing in the Spirit by this, this and this...”

Point 2: Of COURSE we know that a person is a believer by the fruit of the Spirit. That doesn’t make it a forum for public judgement of the person who is that person’s pastor, again… in the form of a blog entry by an openly hostile party. It’s still ridiculous.

point 3: “By liberalism I mean that broad array of related doctrines, ideologies, philosophical views and political traditions rooted in the (largely godless) Western Age of Enlightenment.” So now you’re putting Warren in a camp that he simply doesn’t fit in when you say he is a “high profile champion of liberalism”. Sorry, it doesn’t fit… (and no, I’m not a liberal, really...)

Been down that road before on this forum… not going there again…

But thanks for the dialog…

Thanks Peter,

My point was that as a public figure Rick Warren took his role WAY beyond what you and I do as a “normal” pastor. Of course I wouldn’t expect the individual lives of everyone in my congregation to be analysed by means of a hostile blog! But then you and I are not the author of best-selling books such as TPDL who touted our very high profile publisher as one example of those being benefited by our teachings. No one would reasonably expect you to “remember the next time I say so-and-so goes to my church to make sure I qualify that by saying “and I can prove he’s growing in the Spirit by this, this and this...” but surely you’ll agree that Rick Warren has placed himself in an entirely different situation than yours and mine! If you hold someone up as an example then don’t be surprised if someone asks you to verify your claims.

Actually I disagree with your assertion in point two. Christ told us to EXPECT that the world (hostile as it is) would analyse the lives of Christians. He said we should live out the truth that is within us by his Spirit and in so doing people would recognise not only that we belong to him, but also that there is a power behind the Gospel we proclaim. It’s all a bit too precious to suggest that only Christians—and I’m guessing only “certain” Christians from your perspective—have the capacity or right to discern the veracity of our claims to God’s grace. Now THAT’S ridiculous!!

And finally, it is your assertion that Rick Warren does not fit in the liberal camp. It is mine and that of many other reputable Christians that he does (along with Osteen and others). Just because you disagree does not ipso facto mean that my opinion is invalid, ridiculous, unworthy of continued discussion, etc. In fact, if the only argument against the proposition is “I disagreed before and I won’t change my mind now” (or, as you put it, “Been down that road before on this forum… not going there again… “) I would humbly submit that you’ve just proven my point.

Andrew, in my experience, “liberals” do emphasize “God loves you.” And they emphasize “God loves you, so I need to love you, too.” And that ain’t always comforting. 

You yourself acknowledged that “liberals” place a strong emphasis on social justice.  That’s because they have a particular understanding of what God’s call to holiness includes: feeding the poor, seeking justice for the oppressed, caring for the least of these.  And any “liberal” will tell you that this is not the most comforting prospect either.

And if my definition of the “hard stuff” doesn’t count, then a good chunk of scripture doesn’t count either, including but not limited to the passages to which I alluded...passages that include pretty strong language for those who dismiss it as unimportant. 

What would you define as hard instead?

Love, peace and justice in Christ’s name also definitely consistutes holiness and righteousness in my Book--well, my Book is the NRSV...so maybe I better re-think this most liberal of ideas..ideals.

I never went skinny dipping and if I did they would rename it to let’s just say well rounded dipping.  I have been booed and heckled at the rescue mission, problem was they were right and I was wrong.  I think it is stupid to argue the RW is your pastor you better be a more holy Christian.  We don’t know if Murdoch is a believer in Christ, we don’t know RW’s heart in sharing it (Mr Carins) we don’t know if he did it for his own gain nor do you.  As for being fans of RW, I am his brother not his fan.  As for being liberal or not.  I believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture, and in feeding the poor, social justice and in helping people.  Maybe I am not a liberal or conservative.  Maybe I am just a Christian.

That’s fine Peter.

I haven’t read the entry on the other blog so I have no idea about it at all. I was commenting on the MMI entry itself.

Since it seems the only comments encouraged here are those which agree I think we’ll leave it at that. I have no agenda to push, so I’ll leave you guys to pat each other on the back and feel good.

Leonard, you’re doing to me exactly that which you accuse me of doing to Rick Warren and yourself. Hypocrite!! It was not I who had the problem “just disagreeing” but Peter. I simply made a point about something I read in the original MMI post and that’s where I was slammed ad nauseum by Warren supporters.

I attribute no motives to Rick Warren other than the seemingly obvious. When a high profile pastor tells the world very publicly that his publisher is one of his congregation then what exactly would you have me think? No, I didn’t “hold him up to a standard no pastor should be held to when the sheep fail” as you put it. I simply disagreed with the assertion in the original post that Warren’s claim ought not be verifiable. It was, in fact, the facts-are-not-at-issue-here Warren supporters who got overly defensive and sought to argue semantics.

However, since you argue from this position I would ask exactly HOW you determined what the “approved” standard is against which pastors may be assessed when the sheep fail, but I doubt it would be a Scripturally based and objective one. I would ask exactly WHY regular attendance is the mark of a truly committed and growing Christian, and why those who don’t attend regularly seem to provide a “get out of scrutiny” card to their pastor. And I would ask IF your statement “when the sheep fail” implies your agreement that a man being pastored by the author of TPDL, yet who has no difficulty peddling filth, is indeed a fine example of Rick Warren’s pastoral failure. I would ask these questions but I won’t.

Life’s too short and eternity’s too long to continue this. Judge me as you will (for a crowd who says you abhor judgment your responses seem pretty good at it!).

After being a frequent visitor on MMi for a number of years and trying to get the understanding of where the church was in these days, I have come to the conclusion that most of us differ and there is not much unity in these last days.  I was born and raised a Catholic and thought I had found the truth when I discovered what I thought was biblical teaching in a fundemental KJV only church.  From there I was transferred to a Southern Baptist church only to find various degrees of misconceptions and thoughts.  Out of all of this I am back to (gasp) the Catholic church where I find various degrees of misconceptions and thoughts!  Life is ineteresting is it not?  The main thing is the main thing and God so loved the world that He gave His only Son for you and for me and Rick and Peter and Andrew and Todd and Camey and Wendy and Ricky and.......