We count people, because people do count…

Every number represents an eternal soul created by an eternal God who will one day judge that same eternal soul.

I’m not sure our congregation is doing a great job of “counting” or measuring our effectiveness sometimes.  We are only 3+ years old, and still trying to find out what it means to be the local expression of the Body of Christ.

We have impressive numbers (500+) on Sundays for corporate worship, and we are seeing people becoming engaged in the activities of “church ministry"--but what does this say about collegial relationships within the local body?

Great article, and great questions.

I only wish I had more answers.

Randy,

How do you determine whether you’re being obedient to God in making disciples?  How do you determine whether you’re proclaiming the gospel to the lost?  How do you determine if you are feeding believers biblical truth?  How do you determine if you are faithful in sowing and watering the gospel seed?  How do you determine even if you are trusting God to make it grow?

You see, everything we do is measured by one means or another.  By saying that you are simply ‘sowing and watering’ you have actually already measured that you have sowed and watered.  You have to use some measurement to come up with that in the first place.

To be honest… I have a disagreement with you in this regard:  I don’t think the results WILL necessarily be the same when we choose not to qualify out effectiveness.

Here’s why… In the end, EVERYTHING is God’s business.  But God uses US to conduct and close His business.

And if God uses me to conduct His business; would He not want me to do it the absolute best way I know how?

Randy… I have a guess that you prefer one form of evangelism method over another.  Perhaps you use the Romans Road or the Life Bridge format to share the gospel.  And, you probably use one method over the other because you like it; and because you feel it is more effective.  In doing that, you are measuring success.  That’s the same thing others are doing when they decide to use, say, contemporary music; or a multi-site format.  The people I know who are seeing large numbers of people coming to Christ (Granger included) do so because they constantly measure the success (and failure) of different things they are doing to share the gospel.  Those things that are not effective they stop doing.  Those things that work, they try to duplicate.

You are correct… it is all God’s business… But I’m afraid that he also expects us to measure how effectively we’re handling the work of making His profit!

That’s why Mark says one of the things they do is count people.  If people are important to God; then them MUST be important to us as well.  To say that that’s just his business seems to be a bit of a cop out (and sometimes may be used as a justification against those who are seeing growth through conversions).

Just my 2 cents worth (I’m running out of money here!)

Anyone else have any thoughts?  Am I way off base here?

Todd

Todd,

I think the answer to your questions should be obvious.  All these matters are determined by comparing what we are doing with normative Scriptures. By this I mean we are not necessarily to pattern ourselves after the practices of the book of Acts, for example, since that is historical in nature but after the doctrines set forth in the Epistles of the New Testament.  If our doctrine or practice departs from that standard, we are not being faithful in evangelizing, feeding the flock etc.

We should do God’s business the best way we know how, but that way must be God’s way. I can’t see the Apostle Paul using sales tactics to get conversions.

If you guessed I would use one method of evangelism over another as a matter of regular practice, you would be wrong.  I prefer to meet people where they are and seek to apply specific Scriptures to their individual needs. I despise canned evangelism. I have no problem with contemporary music as long as it is biblically and theologically sound.  Most of the stuff I have heard is biblically and theologically vacuous. Just because people react well to it doesn’t mean we should use it.

Paul wrote, that to some he [his ministry] was a savor of life unto life and to others a savor of death unto death.  There were times his message eventuated in conversions; there were other times it resulted in rebellion and disbelief.  Still, he was always successful when he faithfully proclaimed the Word in dependence on God.

I think one of the differences between us is that you see success in terms of a positive response to the gospel and I see success as glorifying God in the faithful proclamation of his truth.

I have known of missionaries who labored for years in difficult fields before they saw their first convert.  Would you say they weren’t successful because they couldn’t show quantifiable results?

In the grand scheme of things, whether we view the matter from an Arminian or a Calvinistic perspective, are we truly going to bring more sheep into the fold than God has determined to save? Jesus has promised to bring all his sheep into the fold (John 10:16); do we really believe we are going to increase that number by counting people?

Yes, people do matter; how many of them we are able to gather in a specific location doesh’t.

So let’s agree that numbers matter.

How much should they matter to the organization? Again, should staff ever be let go for not producing trackable numbers? Or is the job of staff to provide a healthier culture for God to move, the lost to feel invited in, the saved to feel invited up, and everyone feel invited to invite others into the Kingdom?

There’s a book of Numbers in Scripture… we read about thousands coming to the Lord through certain events, and daily others being added to the Kingdom.

What about when God trimmed back the numbers for the sake of the Kingdom, though? Was there not a time when Israel and Judah were swallowed up by neighboring nations as a means to get their attention through discipline? Or the “one” sheep that the Shepherd is so concerned about that he leaves the mass numbers behind to find it.

All that to ask… when should staff be let go over the issue of numbers, if at all?

Or perhaps the question behind the question - who is ultimately responsible for producing more numbers?

Randy & Tony…

Let’s not run off in too many tangents here.

To finish off this discussion (at least from my perspective)… here are a couple thoughts.

1. I have never been or attended a church where numbers weren’t measured.  Actually things have calmed down in the numbers game.  I grew up in a strict fundamentalist, separatist, baptist church.  We did downright stupid things to acheive numbers.  We (not I, individually) ate goldfish, we gave away airplane rides to the person who brought the most visitors, we even molassas and feathered leaders when we met attendance goals.  Boy, was this tacky.  But, even back then, in goofy manners, numbers counted.  We didn’t fight about the church being only for Christians, but we knew that if we had more people there, more people would come to Christ.  (As a matter of fact, that was one of the few things we DIDN’T fight about.

Still, I have never heard of a church that did not track numbers, conversions, baptisms, etc. in some way.  And yes, most all that I know of, use it as a measurement of effectiveness.

So the idea that we simply don’t count cause it’s not important is totally foreign to me.

2.  On whose responsibility the growth is; there can be some truth in saying that God (not man) always gives the increase, no matter what we do.  But, I also believe that God will reward our human efforts.  Yes, that means that God will choose, suprisingly, to give the greatest increases (sometimes) to those who are exerting the most/best efforts.  Here’s where we differ, I think.

3.  I find it hard to criticize Mark (the person who wrote the original post here) because he’s counting for all the right reasons.  Why is he counting?  Because individual people matter to God, so they automatically matter to him.  Is God happier if we are reaching 50 people than 25?  Logically, if individuals matter to God, if He really cares for them, then he’d be thrilled with 50 over 25; or over 100 instead of 50; or 1000 rather than 800.

You see, I think that this is so ingrained into our values that it is hard to separate.  Since God values individuals; and he has placed us here to help accomplish His goal to reach them; the logically we will measure our effectiveness in reaching them in some way.  The best way is to count the individuals.

I like how Tony Morgan (also from Mark’s church) puts it… Tony says, “Just in case you were wondering...it is about the numbers for me. Those numbers represent the impact ministry is having on people’s lives.”

If God counts the numbers of hairs on my head, or sees one sparrow when it falls, I think he would find it important for me to know how many people attend my church on a given Sunday.  (And to compare it with last month and last year/ and think and dream about ways (with God’s help) that more people can be reached a year from now.

So my bottom line thought is… if you don’t want to count people, fine.  But let those who do (and are seeing the increase) do so.  They’ll give an answer just as you and I will. 

Sorry so long.  Just my thoughts.

Todd