["a lot” of people knew about Haggard’s homosexuality “for a while” but just “weren’t sure just how to deal with it”...] I think it WAS important to wait to do anything “publicly” until they were sure how to deal with it. But if people close to Ted knew and turned the other cheek… Although I understand how hard it might be to confront a friend about something like this… Look at the damage… Perhaps some of the public humiliation could have been avoided. Perhaps a lot of people’s lives would be “less wrecked” right now.

I have never heard of the Traditional Values Coalition, or Rev. Louis Sheldon. How do these groups get started and who do they speak for? And the statement that “Haggard gave him a telltale signal” to his homosexuality is odd. If you have a question and you are friends ask the question. If you do not ask the question and or get an answer how then do you make any accusation?

As for knowing and then doing something about it, it is much easier in the theoretical realm then in the actual. If you know who do you tell? It often becomes a he said/he said affair that who then do you believe? Having been the one turning in it also does not work well. The hurt caused to those not directly involved exceeded nay of my expectations.

Haggard also believed in global warming.  Apparently he was wrong about more than homosexuality.

“When will we stop shooting ourselves in the foot?  The time to do something was before this thing happened, Louis; not after.  Sheldon’s scenario puts Haggard in the same situation that we’ve bemoaned the Catholic church about for the last few years… knowing there was sin in the camp and doing absolutely nothing about it.”

I agree whole heartedly with this assessment!  If the “world” saw the “church” clean house before it became a scandal, I believe they would look at what we do through a more serious lens.  As of now they think we are a bunch of hypocrites, who cover for our own “sinners” and at the same time condemn those “common” sinners and their evil deeds!  How many in the church screamed for Clinton to be impeached for his sexual affair while they turned the other cheek and hand out “get out of jail free” cards to every pastor who cheats on his wife? 

Doesn’t the scripture say that “it is time for Judgment to begin in the house of the Lord!”

The Haggard situation should open our eyes too a couple of problems that are becoming more common in todays churches. The first leads to the second.

1) Many pastors have turned from teaching the true gospel to teaching a gospel not of the bible.
A feel good at all cost, what can I get, all inclusive, country club membership, pander to the buck, suggestion of how we should live, story. About a limp wristed, lamb stroking, man that needs us to do for him.

Leads to:

2) Churches with weak theology chasing after numbers and dollars. Thus leaving little if any room for church discipline and accountability.

It is time for us to get back to the true gospel of the bible and live to serve the one true GOD.
The kingdom of GOD is now! Start living to glorify him now and not just so you can get to heaven when you die!!!!!

Peter,

My intention was not to be unnecessarily inflammatory.

I would say that a church that does not know how to deal with a pastor ,as well as a church member ,that is living in sin has weak theology.

Chasing numbers: Some, even many, are. I did not say all are.
Many pastors that i have met, when you ask them about their church, the first words out of their mouths are how many members they have or how many came forward at their last alter call. How about how many people you have involved in missions and how you are making an impact in your community.
Are we to presume that just because someone joins a church or comes forward that they are repentant and now indwelled by the Holy Spirit (saved, born again). If this were truely the case our world would look much different.
Take Dallas for example:
3 churches with a membership totaling almost 60,000 members. If all were truely living a life that glorified GOD and were involved missionally in thier community. Do you think that Dallas would have the highest crime rate in the nation.
These are churches that chase numbers and have weak theology. I’m not saying that thier pastors and some of their members don’t love Jesus. I just think that they have compromised on the gospel and are now turned inward.

Sorry if taking the gospel and serving GOD as a very serious matter comes across as inflammatory but when talking to those that claim christianity i feel that that warents being blunt and not sugar coating things.

Have to go now but I will comment further later.

Derek, I know a 4 year-old boy that likes to play dress-up with his sister’s Barbie dolls.  Is that a sign he’ll need “reparative or re-orientation therapy”? 

John, while the research you cite certainly seems reasonable (Soy does have phytoestrogens and that’s why it can benefit women going thru menopause) the website Quackwatch disputes the opinions of Weston Price and his foundation.  And I feel certain that there is more to it than just soy protein in baby formula.

Hopefully we can all admit that the question of whether there are physical/genetic/hormonal factors or whether it is strictly a choice gays make is sufficiently complicated to beyond our ability to decide here.  There are people, theologians and scientists, a lot smarted than me who haven’t figured it out yet.

I like women (and absolutely love my wife who occasionally reads these comments) and personally can’t understand how/why any man would “choose” to like men but I know men who are gay and have talked to them about it, and it has given me reason to believe there are factors beyond it just being a choice they make.

As for Todd’s question; Sheldon’s comments seem sufficiently foolish to be disregarded. 

Regarding the Democrats winning the recent elections he said “We know that in America the people are with us, they’re just confused.” Nice.  If you don’t vote Republican you’re just confused?

And of course the “He said homosexuality is genetic. I said, no it isn’t. But I just knew he was covering up. They need to say that.” “They” need to say that?  Yeah, you know, “those” people.  They need to say stuff like that to let us know they’re gay without actually coming right out and saying it.

And IF “a lot” of people knew, then “a lot” of people were wrong not to have said something to someone so that the public ordeal could have been avoided or at least prepared for and a lot of people were wrong not to have tried to help Ted Haggard.

Greg L. writes [the first words out of their mouths are how many members they have or how many came forward at their last alter call]… Not in itself a bad thing, Greg. If i’m talking to a pastor, and he’s sharing his challenges with me, it’s easier to commiserate with him (and maybe even give some helpful suggestion, as just happened with me today) if I know how many he’s dealing with. Problems in 100 member churches and 1000 member churches tend to be very different I’ve found. Just because they are using these numbers to describe their church does NOT mean that they are chasing them. I often start in describing my church the same way, and by the way, our missional impact, both in our community and outside of it, is substantial.

Also, [3 churches with a membership totaling almost 60,000 members. If all were truely living a life that glorified GOD and were involved missionally in thier community. Do you think that Dallas would have the highest crime rate in the nation. ] Yes, I do! It would make sense that God would do a LOT of work for the kingdom in a place with a high crime rate, since the sick need a doctor, the healthy don’t. Just putting those numbers together does not, imho, force one to conclude that such churches are “sugar coating things.”

Thanks for your comments!

Bernie,

No naivity on my part… I deleted your post because you posted about John Hagee and his finances.  I understand your feelings about Hagee, and really, feel that I’ve given you quite a large forum here to expound your thoughts about him (as regular readers here will attest).

Again, a quick way to get in trouble here at MMI is to attack the host.  (That would be me). 

Todd

DanielR,I wouldn’t suggest you put too much stock in what comes out of “Quackwatch” - Stephen Barrett isn’t worthy of much trust and has been laughed out of a number of court cases in his efforts to try to undermine Natural Medicine. Weston A Price on the other hand is deserving of much admiration for their efforts to expose many of the destructive processes and products foisted on the American public, many of which have shown themselves over time to be highly dangerous to the health of the nation. As to the subject at hand let’s refrain from assuming that no one can make an educated assessment of the situation regarding homosexuality or an effeminization of boys - your ignorance on an issue does not constitute conclusive support for the ignorance of others. (A pervasive post-modernist position).

Financial impropriety as charged by Bernie Dehler is not equivilant to sexual misconduct; sorry Bernie.

Look… we’ve had this discussion here before.  I’m not being two-faced; I’m not surpressing anything.  You’ve had a platform (with thousands of visitors, I might add) here for months.  (If I had a dollar for every time you’ve mentioned Hagee, I’d be rich).  And in each post, you’re sure to advertise your own website.  Enough of the Hagee stuff already or I’ll have to treat you like I do my kids when they say something bad and prohibit you from saying the word “Hagee”.

Here’s the deal… and we’ve discussed this here MANY times before.  If John Hagee is guilty of impropriety, then his church will need to deal with it.  Just like Ted Haggard’s church did.

An idea… Maybe you could play the part of the male prostitute here, Bernie. Call up a TV station in Hagee’s hometown and tell them you have some dirt on him.  Maybe they’ll listen.

I know you disagree; but I don’t want to discuss the Hagee thing here.  It’s in a totally different league.  And if there’s a big Hagee financial scandal that breaks, I will feel just fine about his church dealing with it.

Now if those who know Hagee find issue with him and say nothing; then there’s more of a problem.  But you and I don’t.

No need to respond.

Todd

DanielR – I agree with every point you made, but then I’m “partly” confused because I voted “partly” Democratic.

Comments like these from Sheldon could represent “shots in our own foot” for several reasons:
• If “lots of people” (I’m assuming Christian leaders) really knew (for certain) that something was wrong, including Sheldon, and didn’t help Ted, alert the board of his church and the board of the NAE, we are just like the Catholic leaders who covered up.
• If he is just blowing hot air or speculating to the press . . . then he has opened the door to all kinds of gossip and public speculation which can only hurt the healing and restoration process.
• Whether or not “lots of people” knew something, how is making this vague comment to the press justified?  What good can be accomplished? 

All the while the lost look in on us . . . oh what they must be thinking.

Wendi

DanielR,
Just because I intend to be thorough in exposing the error in trusting anything from Quackwatch, a website and misinformationist (Stephen Barrett) that is doing untold harm to people in need of truthful information about health issues, I wanted to provide the following:
Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases
At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam.

This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed expert testimony as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a legal expert even though he had no formal legal training.

The most da$%^ng testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial.

During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA).http://www.canlyme.com/quackwatch.html
DanielR - I would encourage you to read the entire article and learn more about Mr. Barrett and his motives.

As to what causes homosexuality, when a baby boy’s developmental stage in which his masculinity develops is obstructed by high doses of phytoestrogens in Soy Formula, which has been well established by scientific evidence expansively covered by Weston A. Price on their website and in publications, there is a critical element which is missing, thus the effeminite male becomes a more common occurrence then had they not been subjected to soy formula as an infant. I never said that was all there is to it, in fact I said something quite different, add in the cultural influences and pro-homosexual agenda foisted on children throughout their educational experience and the entertainment industry and it is a very powerful 1-2 punch that many succumb to.

You end your story about a friend’s struggle with homosexuality with this “He’s now a UCC minister, openly gay, and finally happy.” Now there Daniel is a clear example of “the pleasure of sin for a season”. The Bible is clear, crystal clear about the fate of those who continue and perish in willful homosexuality - 1 Cor. 6:9,10Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
I do recognize the inclusion of theives, idolaters, revilers, coveteous, etc… included in the group - so please don’t accuse me of ignoring the breadth of that group. That there are groups of “theologians” who disagree is no shock - there are many in cloth and ministry who deny what is clearly defined in scripture, again no shock.
One final note and I’ll leave it at this - only in the mind of one consumed by the Post-modern is a profession of ignorance proof of an educated mind. You said “I’m at least educated enough on the subject to know I don’t know all the answers.” But what you are showing Daniel is that despite the truth staring you right in the face, specifically with regard to the homosexuality issue - you are unwilling to submit to God’s word on the subject. There is no need to pray about understanding where God stands on the issue, pray rather about how to share the truth with those trapped in the confines of the homosexual lifestyle which, that if not repented of and forsaken, will lead to only one eternal destination. That destination being the same as those who are unrepentant and unforgiven for lying, theft, coveteousness, lust, etc…