John, I’m sure the Episcopal Church, the UCC, parts of the Methodist and Baptist denominations, and various other denominations will repent and cast out all their gay members now that you have proclaimed the truth to them.

I grew up in what I believe is your kind of church, a church that taught that homosexuality was a mental defect that should be corrected by therapy or invasive surgery if necessary, a church that taught me women were made to serve men and therefore expected to be submissive, that the Bible endorsed slavery and segregation was proper, that adultery was an unforgivable sin for a woman but not so unforgivable for a man, a church filled with hatred and intolerance.

I really see no point in conversing any further with someone who claims to be a Christian and then tells me there’s no need to pray for God’s guidance. 

May Jesus unharden your heart.

Well stated bondservant and DanielR, just to let you know I do regularly pray that God will continually soften my heart to be more willingly conformed to the likeness of Christ and make me more able to see others as He sees them.In the natural world we would look at a doctor who misdiagnosed and mistreated a patient as being guilty of criminal misconduct and abuse of his position, compare that to the church leaders who usurp the word of God and deny the truths therein and promise eternal life to those who remain active in their sins and in open rebellion against the commandments of God and Jesus Christ. Jesus said it is not an act of adultery that convicts you of breaking that commandment - it is simply a lustful thought - hetero or homesexual in nature - the thought life will be judged and convicts us. I would never advocate kicking homosexuals out of churches, but the truth must be proclaimed if they are ever to have any hope of eternal life. Comforting them in the present will provide no comfort in the future, but rather will, as bondservant said very well, provide false hope and comfort.I’ve yet to see a like-minded Christian lift their Bible to beat anyone over the head with it and likewise I would not be silent when the word of God is misused to convey what you described above. Your perceiving me to be like that does not make me that way, nor does it even confirm that my thoughts are as you present them. It is horrific that people go through experiences like that is churches, but to abandon the truth and believe the lie, though appealing to the flesh has no promise of confort in the eternal realm.

Daniel R.  Brother, I understand your concern and am sorry that you grew up with unforgiving, proud people.  Could you consider though, that God’s holiness is absolute, and think about the possibility of His empowering grace to overcome?  Just because proud people point their fingers does not mean that they are wrong about the problem.  We need to stand firm in truth, but we should do it with great humility. The amazing thing is not that God could accept Ted Haggard or anyone else who struggle with homosexuality, if they repent; it is amazing that He accepts me, with all of my past sins, and my wanton heart, which continually must be held in check by His word and Spirit.  I don’t think that God will amaze us by His willingness to accept unrepentant sinners into heaven, but I do think that we will be amazed that, after all of our faults and failures and sins, we ourselves will be found worthy to stand before Him. But, please, be sure that sin will be judged. The answer, brother, is to go to the Lord and let His word guide in all things.  The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, not create new truth for us to believe.  I say this with such compassion for you, brother, I do not comdemn.  I have struggled so much and tried so hard in my own life to find allowances for my sin, and I must say that freedom has never come to me through this avenue.  “Did God say?”, was the original temptation to Eve, and it still tempts us today.  His word is true, His judgments are certain, His forgiveness is available when we fall IF we repent, and His power is available to help us overcome.  But we will fall short of His empowering grace if we try and change the standard.

Bernie,

I think this is where a lot of people disagree with you. Nathan had a relationship with David I think. Paul had a relationship with Peter so he could “oppose him to his face”. I think our “nathans” are people in our community circle, not just anyone.

Nathan’s relationship with David was that Nathan was a prophet and spoke as God told him.  Paul was related to Peter as any Christian is connected to another because they are in the family of God.  Paul opposed Peter publically because Peter was damaging the local church by his hypocrisy. 

If our heart is open, we will receive rebuke from any source.  That is the point.  If we are in sin, why wait until a friend points it out?  If our goal is to be like Christ (Rom. 8:29), we will use every opportunity to get there.  If our goal is to lie and deceive, we will resist all forms of rebuke until we are cornered.

bondservant writes “I wish church leaders would develope a little thicker skin and not assume that their “followers” are trying to undermine them when they have the courage to confront them.” That is so very true, but also… I wish people who consider themselves “prophetic” would be more careful about the ways they DO confront church leaders. Seriously… I’ve been on the wrong side of what I would call “incorrect correction.” People that mean well but end up gossipping and backbiting over trivial matters, or about matters that they’re just plain wrong about.

Not everyone who has an issue with something said in a sermon or decided in a committee or sung in a song is a prophet… That said, there is DEFINITELY a place for correction and confrontation, but it is still, I argue, in community. I don’t find any prescriptive word in the Bible for us in the church being rebuked by outsiders. Sorry, I just don’t see it…

Thanks Peter for your reply.  I agree that there are backbiters and divisive people who can cause a lot of trouble. But there is an attitude in many people that “my pastor has the final word”, and I think this is a reason that some pastors get into a position similar to Haggard’s.  When your only “accountability” group is other men who are in the same position you are, there is a tendency to cover each other’s backs.  Not intentionally, but it happens.  It’s hard to tell your friend that a joke was off color, or you’ve noticed he’s a little too cosy with the church secretary.  The community can sometimes become the enabler.  I’m just asking pastors to consider that there may be others with insight in their church, besides those who are counted among the leadership. And because so many times the senior pastor has SO MUCH influence in who stays and who goes, there are a lot of Nathan’s in the pastor’s relationship circle who simply keep their mouths shut.  Please, please, don’t become hardened to the comments and concerns of the common church goer.  God just may be trying to get your attention through that insignificant brother, because those who have attained significance are unwilling to speak.

Bondservant, I wish that I could say I’m never confronted by my members. I get confronted regularly but it is usually about attendance, finances, the music, and occasionally about something biblical or my theology.

Never about how can we reach the lost, what can we do as a mission outreach, and so forth.

I’m sure many of you have other church experiences and that there are churches out there that are concerned about spiritual matters but this is what I face and I bet I’m not alone.

On Sheldon’s comments, One of the least favorite persons I have in the church are those who after the church has decided to move ahead in one direction, and after things haven’t turned out as hoped or as quickly as hoped, they will say, “I knew it wouldn’t work.” All the while having never voiced that opinion during the decision process. I think it reveals a very poor, and cowardice, attitude and I think Sheldon is grandstanding.

I agree with a previous comment regarding why would one admit they knew something and were confounded by what to do about it. I might accept this from a layperson, especially a new Christian, but a long time pastor and head of a coalition?