BeHim,
I do not in any way think that you hate me (nor I, you, for that matter) and I do get the analogy of the fire. AND, I apologize if I came off as angry.  Passionate maybe, but not angry.  SO GET OFF MY BACK! (that was a JOKE!) My point is this:  Go back to the top.  What was the point of discussion?  To me is was simply a discussion on a potential way to ascertain God’s purpose, call, direction etc. in our lives. 
(SIDE NOTE:  Yes, we could discuss/debate that spiritual topic for days, but not now.)
But, in only two entries, the topic was gone and judgement was on.  (I honestly did not want that to rhyme, I’m so sorry...)
Now, I have not read the book but I’m willing to ASSUME the best of it’s intention while keeping an eye open for anything that would bring caution and we would discuss.  But it doesn’t happen that way.  Caution doesn’t come mixed with the discussion, we took a HARD left (or right) turn in to humanism!  And, it’s presented in what sounds like, to me, self-righteousness.  I know it’s not intended because we backoff and let each other know that we don’t hate each other and all the nice stuff.
As for our purpose:  okay, you say submission and obedience...okay to what purpose, direction?  “I am submitted and obedient now, God, what do You want me to do with it?” Finding THAT, I think, was the original point that we never really discussed!
As for me, I believe we are created for love and to love and to be loved.  To “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” From this LOVE, comes the submission and obedience.  That’s how I see it.
I love ya my brother...I have HAVE TO, God said so....sheesh.
God Bless!
Ben E.

Ricky,
Oh, I understand and yes, I’ve been on the bad end of “doing church.” Growth by programs and statistics and it completely shreaded me!  And I’ve experienced the opposite side of that coin where principals, ideas, insights, tools and even (dare I say) PROGRAMS (ha HA!) that, in my opinion, have a solid scriptural base have been misused, abused, poorly implemented and turned into something they were never intended to be.  This only adds fuel to the fire and lends credence to your arguments.  (ie “points of debate")
The problem, in my opinion, is that the worst is assumed and the extreme angle is taken.  What I’m asking is, can’t we lovingly assume the best, engage the discussion AT IT’S INTENDED POINT and, when a “flag” goes up, ask questions.  We then clarify on the point, agree OR agree to disagree and continue discussing THE POINT?
That way, perhaps, we could go beyond 2 or 3 entries before high ground is claimed and trenches are dug.  CAN’T WE ALL GET ALONG!
Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding.  Though I am very passionate about many of these isssue, I intend the vast majority of what I’m expressing to be recieved with a liberal dose of good humor.  (It’s hides the nasty sarcism!)
At this point, we are responding to each other in delay mode which isn’t the best for this kind of communication.  I shall read no further and regardless of what is written, I shall assume the best of each of you!  Now that we all agree that I’m right and you are wrong, I shall go the big orange home fix-it store and select a bathroom vanity with my lovely bride and glorious children.  I look forward to continuing our disucssion and if I don’t meet you here, I hope to see you on the “otherside.” The side with the pretty streets and lovely waters.
God Bless!
Ben E.

BEN WRITES:
Caution doesn’t come mixed with the discussion, we took a HARD left (or right) turn in to humanism! And, it’s presented in what sounds like, to me, self-righteousness.

BeHim responds:
Ben, I speak against self-righteousness and self all together and if you are taking my position then why do you assume the ideology of the book is not humanistic in nature?  Have you tested books to determine if they are or are not humanistic in nature?  Do you know how to test them? - Just ask Biblical questions as though you were doing so from God’s perspective.

BEN WRITES:
As for our purpose: okay, you say submission and obedience...okay to what purpose, direction? “I am submitted and obedient now, God, what do You want me to do with it?”

BeHim responds:
Ben, let’s be clear, the Bible teaches submission and obedience, this is not my original thought, Glory to God, not me.  If you’re asking me what purpose or direction you need to go; it’s simple and very much again, Biblical.

Preach the Gospel (this btw must include some kind of separation because of sin otherwise what good is the word “repent” or “confess”) and make disciples of men.

As for what He wants you to do outside of that, God wants you to learn more about Him, His Attributes, His Character, Make Him Lord of your thoughts and time.  Don’t spend time learning about you, spend time learning about Him.

How do you do this?  You must learn doctrine.  Yes, a bad word to many but none-the-less necessary to lead and teach people about God.  Otherwise, we are led by “warm-fuzzy” feelings about who God is and how it relates to us.  I just can’t think of anything more clear in Scripture than these “directives”.

BEN WRITES:
As for me, I believe we are created for love and to love and to be loved. To “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” From this LOVE, comes the submission and obedience. That’s how I see it.

BeHim responds:
I would humbly disagree with you Ben.  First, we are created for His Good Pleasure (that is ALL mankind is created for His Good Pleasure) and second, you’re putting the horse before the cart.

If you carefully read your post, you’ll see the real problem with your statement is:  “this LOVE” is your love – which is to say, “I love the Lord my God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind” and because you have this love, you are submitted and obedient.  I disagree!

It’s because of HIS Love that you heard, obeyed, submitted and then loved.  Scripturally speaking, “we love Him because [read that] He first Loved us.” And that would be from before the foundations of the earth!  Praise and Glory to God, Amen!

Food for thought Ben, in the end, bickering and going back and forth isn’t going to change a person.  It’s only when the person truly seeks God’s face and asks Him to reveal the Truth to him in Scripture.  We should all, when confronted with an argument or position that makes Biblical sense, seek God’s council about it and search out the matter.  Many times however, we won’t do that.  Instead, we argue back and harden our hearts to the message; and walk away with some kind of remark like: “I’m going to believe what I want and you can too.”

It’s not really what we are called to do (we ARE called to test all things) but in the end, it’s really the only way to release people from the burdens of doctrine they are either not willing to accept or the Lord has not opened their eyes and ears to (I tend to believe the latter but hope in the former).

Ask yourself honestly, have you searched out these matters Scripturally?  Have you tested the ideology of these christian books?  If not, then why do you argue for or against.  I can honestly say I have searched out these matters and cosidered the Scriptures in all things.  I don’t speak from ignorance on the matter, I speak from knowledge and understanding that Glory be to God, God has allowed me to know and to understand.  I exhort you to seek the same from Him.

This was to be a discussion on honing in on your purpose in ministry; finding ways that you can help make a bigger impact on the Kingdom. Instead, we get into a theological debate on humanism?

Honing in on your purpose:  Scripture says deny yourself and follow Him.  This is our primary purpose OR the opposite, serve self and do what you want, when you want and how you want.

Our purpose in ministry is to “preach the Gospel” and “make disciples of men”

How to make a bigger impact on the kingdom:  Be Him!  Learn all the doctrines (beliefs) that relate to Him. and of course, deny yourself in all things.  Esteem others higher than yourself and love even when you are hated.

As for the 99%, God has a track record of working with the smaller numbers so as to not share the Glory with men (ie. Gideon, David, Isaiah, the 12 apostles).  Maybe being “outside” the larger percentage isn’t a bad thing at all.

I for one would very much enjoy to see a blog covering difficult doctrines Todd, begin with Sovereignty and Free Will or Total Depravity.

Ricky,

You weren’t the main culprit here, or even one of the culprits… I used your name above, unfairly in this post (probably not unfairly in my opinion in your overall posts, but we’ve discussed that privately before), actually you were quite civil… and I’m not in to blackballing anyone or telling people to go away.  RThat’s not what I was asking for.

I am, however, into somehow not having every topic here picked apart (as this one was on the humanism rant).

I’m not sure what the answer is… I’ve offered to help set up an alternative blog if someone would like to lead it.  I know that I would be a regular reader, and probably a ‘burr under your saddle’ at that blog (it’d be fun to turn the tables!)

Anybody else have other ideas as to have a civil blog, a positive blog, and/or a blog where everyone can have great input without everything taking on a negative tone?  I’d love to hear from you!

Todd

Message received loud and clear… you won’t hear from me again…

...Bernie

Now Bernie this would be OK if your were not a child of God. If in my life of being persecuted for my stance for Christian Doctrine I would have quit speaking out and I would have left evil go unchallenged. There is nothing the devil would like to do better then to silence the voice of the Children of God. The devil has been very sucessful in keeping the body of Christ silent, but we are awakening and we will not be silent anymore. Truth basic truth as found in the Word of God is worth dying for muchless a little criticism.

Michelle,

You ARE wrong.  There is Truth and there is False and God has NOT hidden it from men.

You assume both arguements are wrong and only God can know the Truth.  You are wrong.

God obviously reveals truth to men.  The entire POINT of the Bible.

Or is what your alluding to is: Each man has truth the Holy Spirit has given him/her?

Would the Holy Spirit contradict itself?

So when there is a contradiction between two Holy Spirit filled men/women, who is wrong?

Can’t be the Holy Spirit/God!

To believe the Holy Spirit will give each man/woman “thier” own truth EVEN if it contradicts...... alligns with the Scripture, “every man/woman did what was right in their own eyes.”
Danger Will Robinson!

You also assume encouraging a person to watch out for sin is somehow wrong.  I believe we have a responsability to watch out for each other.  TO just allow a Christian brother/sister to wallow in sin and stand by and do nothing, is NOT love, that is HATE!

Do you assume the Holy Spirit doesn’t use men to convict other men of sin?  That is truly the preaching and teaching of the Gospel - “repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” - a convicting measure that we are COMMANDED to preach to the entire world!

What I have noticed in Christian discussion/debate/opinion (whatever you may want to call it) is when one side has a more Biblical AND more logical position, the other side throws them on “iggy” (that’s ignore in online terms) by either keeping quiet, or putting them in “another room or place”.

Almost as if to say… well, you have the right to your opinion but this (whatever “this” might be) is what I believe and you can believe what you want to believe (we all know Biblically, this leads to:  “they all did that which was “right” in their own eyes” – right is not determined through the eyes of men, but the Heart, Mind, Spirit and Word of God). 

As though we have two different or opposing belief systems (which may in fact be true but not definitely not RIGHT).  We are to be of one mind and one Spirit but instead many think it is perfectly okay to walk away from the table with “I’m going to go away with what I believe, regardless of the evidence presented to me, because this is what I know and what I’ve been taught.” What if what you know and been taught is Biblically wrong?  I DEFINITELY want to know when and where I am, Scripturally, wrong!!!

If, I for one, am found wanting from a Biblical and Logical (primarily Biblical) position and my argument doesn’t stand up to the test of Scripture, then I MUST consider changing my position (not necessarily over night - but I have to at least consider searching the matter out) because I want to be as close to THE TRUTH (which would also bring me closer to The Way and The Life) as possible.

Even secular debates know the value of defending and opposing positions - they know it improves their chances of locating/discovering truth.

This blog was obviously started to serve Jesus Christ, don’t get in the way of Biblical debate.  Don’t shut people up or throw them on iggy by “moving them out of here”.

Allow the discussion on these articles to go their natural course.  Don’t assume because a person has a strong BIBLICAL opinion about things, that he/she is wrong, allow the discussion to play out and truly see what is right and wrong.

Maybe if ‘EVERY’ article seems to go this way it’s because every article NEEDS to go this way.  Maybe God is indeed using this format to bring about His Truth.  Let us not hinder the work of God in the hearts of men but encourage healthy discussion.

Healthy, I’m sure you would agree, doesn’t mean if a person can’t make a strong Biblical argument they cry fowl and either pipe up or leave.  That’s childish.  Let’s put our beliefs to the test (ESPECIALLY when beliefs/doctrines oppose one another), as the Bareans!

To say we are of one mind and Spirit is obviously not the case.  There are diametrically opposing views on this and other posts.  These matters need to be worked through, discussed and considered.  Not for the glory of men but in fact for the Glory of God.

Truth always prevails over lies!  ALWAYS!  No True Christian should be found wanting.  No True Christian should be able to not provide answer for what they believe.  Yes, maybe a new born Christian but certainly not a minister (which is who and what this site caters to)!

I beg of you in the name of Jesus to allow the discussions to run their course (if someone gets rude or angry, encourage forgiveness and patience - if someone disagrees adamantly but is wrong Biblically, reveal it to them in humbleness and love - if someone, etc...), these things are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in THE Faith right now!  Almost like there is “hand-writing appearing on the wall”.

Michelle

I am confident my righteousness is in Christ alone.  Let God be True and every man a liar.

Do you assume confidence in what is right and wrong is arrogant?

Do you assume a person who can declare right and wrong does so without acknowledging God?

Are you stating what you believe “that God made me the way I am and since He has a plan that just maybe the characteristics He gave me, He’ll use for His gloy” is right and anyone that believes otherwise is somehow Scripturally wrong?  Can you please reveal this truth in Scripture to us?

Could what you believe be right in just your eyes and it doesn’t matter what Scripture says?  My belief could be right in my eyes alone but I search the Scriptures and test my beliefs so as not to be found guilty of anything less than seeking Him.  To be worthy of the calling.

To believe that God doesn’t want you/us to grow in Knowledge and Truth and you’ll just go where ever the “wind” may blow, is not Scriptural or prudent.

i certainly do not intend to continue this much longer.  you are confident that you are the ONLY person that seeks God and studies His word (or at least you come off that way) so you are 100% correct and could never be wrong.  if only all the other christians throughout time and history would have known the secret to knowing all there is to know about God and His word, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. 
as i do not wish to hijack this posting with a useless discussion, i’m stepping out of this. you can continue being content with being right.

To Michelle
Here are some verses for you to contemplate. They are not part of todays relevant gospel, but only part of the Word of God. Most liberals when they are challenged by facts that they can not refute usually turn to anger and personal attacks.

In America we value freedom of speech and the ability of sound debate. The sharing of ideas with open and free discourse always opens doors to opportunity and greater vision.

The following scriptures have been all but forgotten in todays feminist culture.

1 Timothy 2:8-15
8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

I love Christ, my family, my siblings in Christ.

I hate seeing the people I love abused or neglected, especially when it’s at the hands of those who should love them most.