The first thing that popped into my mind when I read this was that even Jesus said, “I must be about my Father’s business”.

[usnewswire.com that put the spin the other way:  Business leaders are starting to apply the teachings of the church and religion in their business practices.]

Which teachings and what religion?  I will GAURANTEE they are not teaching THE Gospel (maybe “a” gospel) and there is no doubt they are not using Scripture for doctrine, correction and reproof.

[providing inspiration and motivation for those with leadership—or potential leadership—abilities or responsibilities.]

Is this THE Gospel or is it a gospel?  Q:  What are they “inspired” by and to do what?  What is their “motivation”?  We cannot worship both God and Mammon.

[Sir John Templeton, regarded by Wall Street as one of the world’s wisest investors, concluded in his extensive research that “the common denominator connecting successful people and successful enterprises is a devotion to ethical and spiritual principles."]

“ragarded.... as one of the world’s”.  That should say it all.  Are we here for treasures?  This is the point of the different gospels.  Self!

[So… which is it?  Are business principles invading the church, or are biblical principles spreading outside of the church?]

The question isn’t are people becoming better people (humans), this is humanism at it’s core!  Come on pastors, you know good people, even great people, are going to go to hell don’t you?

This is about The Gospel of Christ.

Scripture isn’t profitible to become better people, it is profitible unto the saving of souls.  For correct teaching of The Gospel and correct conduct as a servant.

Would business improve as Christian conduct permiates the organization?  Yes.  But this won’t happen by skipping first the Wrath of God, then The Gospel (THE Gospel) and going directly to “conduct”.

Todd said:

“No… it was saying that some business owners are now giving biblical principles a try because their current business ethics aren’t working.”

And why, Todd, are businesses giving “biblical principles” (a very subjective phrase) a try?

Is it because they truly want to bring their businesses in line with Godly standards?  Nope.  I don’t think so.

Or is it because they see profits from potential customers that will attend this conference?  Yep.  I think so.

My view is if a business owner is a Christian then why should he/she need to attend a conference that will deal with ethical practices? 

If he/she is not a Christian, then how would they understand and/or apply biblical ethics in their business?

I see this as another entanglement that continues to strangle the life out of the church.

The best model for “Business Principles” in a church is the Mormon Church!  Is that what we want to become?

I can’t help but think of that rag-tag group of believers who met in homes and caves, lost their businesses, were tortured, were beaten, scourged, crucified, stoned and left for dead.  Did not have the approval of the world, were despised and rejected, counted all they knew as rubbish compared to knowing Christ and still with a lack of: mega churches and programs and seminars and seminaries, and colleges and 401Ks and business principles and tax-exempt status and freedom of speech and laws that protected their right to worship – still managed to turn the world upside-down!

And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 (NASB)

Okay Todd, ‘fess up.  You read the book of Proverbs too don’t you?

Can you believe I am afraid (of all people) to comment here at MMI? Yikes! You guys get pretty serious in here real fast. But I will give it a shot anyway.

I do think for the most part the American church model is run like a business. My top three (very vague) examples (without explanation):

1. Pastors as CEO’s and all of that.
2. Buildings, buildings and more buildings and the fundraising it takes to raise such structures.
3. Equating ministry success with numerical growth and other statistical data...numbers, events, budgets, etc.

Now, what do I think about this press release and the Leadership Summit? I think it is interesting to see business leaders actually attending a church conference to learn business principles...when most of those principles they will be learning are generally coming from the business world.

Warren, Hybels, Maxwell, et al are (without apology) taking a lot of what they do from the business world and applying it to the church. Niche-marketing, “purpose-driven”, Peter Drucker (Warren’s mentor)...all the church-growth guys use the business models and work it into their church. This is a fact and not an idictment - because some of it has proven useful to reaching people. Jesus also used common known things from the culture of his day to communicate with people.

But what I think is exciting about this is that there is a possibility that “far from God” people (some business leaders coming from outside the church) might be attending a “church event” for the first time. Having been to a Leadership Summit before, I know that they will hear about the life-changing love and grace of God. I don’t think that’s too bad...is it?

Ok...now I am going to quietly duck out of here...everyone remain calm!

[First of all, I’m the one who wrote the rules AND the one who enforces the rules here. Again, please don’t bring that up in my face. I believe I’ve asked that before of you. That clearly wasn’t a ‘blow’ but an observation on my part. I in no way mean any contempt toward you personally (hopefully you know that by now from all our discussions).]

I don’t mind pot shots or mild blows while you and I are discussing in private emails but when you’re trying to set the example, it looks like contempt.  Don’t suggest you shouldn’t be held accountible just because you set the rules

[My case in point… How many posts have you read here, and instantly declared ‘humanism’? At least four or five it seems that I can think of in the last couple of weeks. I know that you think that they are all truly humanistic; but I just don’t see it that way. Sorry.]

Self is prevalent in almost everything “churchianity” Todd.  The music, the worship style, methods, practices, etc.  It’s so prevalent there is no real contrast by which to measure it unless one goes “outside” their regular belief systems (polor opposite in many cases).  Acclaiming self (or a group of selves as is the case with this article) is taught more often than not in most churches.  Consider the core message of the article:  The world plans to attend The Church to apply Teachings to the world.  That just doesn’t even sound right let alone be right.

[I really think you need to be careful when you decry everything as pure humanism. I don’t mean to be technical here; but we are talking about God here too… and it’s the same God who wants us to excel and be the best we can be. I’m not at all advocating Tony Robbins or his ilk at all. If they deny God then it is humanism plain and simple… but I think to decry Willow or most of the other ‘innovative’ churches that we often discuss here as humanistic is wrong.]

The core of humanism is self (or selves).  That man is the ultimate sum of all things and we’ll use whatever we need (The Bible, God, Buddha, Mormonism, etc) to achieve our goals.  So is your decree that willow or other innovative churches are not humanistic?  I don’t mind when somebody believes the exact opposite of what I do… let’s “test” it.

FYI.  These things I said in here are not a “rant” unless asking questions and making a statement is a rant???  We’ve all expressed our views and opinions on this and other blogs, no need for pot shots (on either side).

This is a great question that probably will never be answered to everyones satisfaction.  As a Sr.Pastor of a growing church in the 90’s I was amazed as the amount of business decisions that had to be made daily.  I determined quickly that I was not a business man and surrounded myself with Godly men and women who advised in areas of business and I decipled them in Christian Living.  This was a great help and allowed me to be about the Father’s Business.  Prayer, study of the word and taking care of God’s people is our business as pastors.  Believe me it is alot easier than worrying about a finacial report at the end of the quarter.
I recommend the Willow Creek Leader Creek Summit.

Todd,

Did you ever listen to or read the sermon “Ten Shekels and a Shirt” (I suggested pastors on this blog to do so when “humanism/pragmatism” was an issue weeks ago)
Read it here:
http://www.firesofrevival.com/shekels1.htm
Hear it here:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282
You don’t see to see how “humanism” can morph from its dictionary definition into the real life of the church at the expense of Biblical truth and the leading of the Holy Spirit…
pdl

pdl,

Yes, I have listened to it; and sure… I think it can happen; I would call that liberalism (now that’s a word that has a whole different meaning to every person)

But seriously; yes, it can happen… but I’m not on a spiritual witch hunt against humanism.  If a church or pastor preaches Christ crucified, risen and coming again; and that His blood paid the sacrifice for my sins, then count me in with them.  That’s my standard.

Todd

Todd, I do think it is interesting that people send their leaders to the conference. I wonder if they go willingly or because the boss says so. Hopefully they will come out of it with more than just some good business methods. I also think that perhaps people should actually go to the conference before saying they know what its all about. Maybe it is humanistic after all, but I don’t think you can say that until you are there or atleast listen to the audio messages or something. Thanks, Todd, for this post and for putting stuff like this on here, knowing that you’ll probably get some negative responders.

pdl,

Our versions of “hollow and deceptive philosophy” are different.  What you see as “hollow and deceptive philosophy” I do not. 

It’s a difference of philosphy; and a difference in beliefs; and I really don’t see that anyone here will change their mind.

Meanwhile, we spin round and round in circles getting nowhere; when there are more important fish to fry.

Why can’t we leave it at this… make sure you’re doing exactly what you think God has called you to do; and leave the willows and fellowships and others to do what they feel God has called them to do (and they DO think that God has called them to do something).  Believe it or not; there are some deeply committed Christians involved in these churches that are just as deliberate and ademate at winning souls for Christ as you and others who constantly run the ‘humanism’ flag up the flagpole.

Again, just my own 2cents.

Todd

Exactly pdl… I can’t even use the right scripture version for you (I quoted the NIV).

I’m glad I didn’t use The Message:

Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that’s not the way of Christ.

Actually I kind of like that one.

Todd