Orginally published on Monday, September 12, 2005 at 9:06 AM
by Todd Rhoades
David is a young Seventh-Day Adventist pastor who had an interesting entry at his blog on why people leave churches (or as David puts it, ‘why churches leave people’). I found it interesting and true. David writes…
I just read Mark Finley's booklet They're Coming Home about reaching former members who no longer attend church. It has several helpful lists of ways to reach out to former members, but one of the most informative is the list of reasons "Why Some People Leave" church.
So do people leave the church, or does the church leave people? Three out of four items on this list show the church leaving people. (I put item 2. in this category since people should be able to find help for personal problems at church).
Another good list is the "Signs of Fading Interest" in the church:
The point of this information is that when we see these things happening to contact our friends and ask them what's going on. Don't let your church be one that 'leaves people'. Listen to their story, accept them and their faults, and invite them to worship with you again. Just noticing and caring may make the difference.
FOR DISCUSSION: What do you think of this list? Do you have people that should be on your "Signs of Fading Interest" list? What will you do about it?
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This list is fairly accurate. I’ve been in ministry for over 20 years and have experienced every one of them.
One of the “big” ones I have experienced from a personal perspective probably fits the first category but it has to do with a lack of submission on the part of the membership of the church. Sadly, many people in the church view their role as being that of evaluators of the ministry - pastoral staff, worship service, programs, ministries, etc. They also view their role in somewhat of an adversarial situation with church leadership. It’s similar to labor-management in the business world. You can probably tell I’m from the midwest where unions are pretty strong. So, as a result, when leadership actually leads, people in the pew, who think the church is a democracy, get frustrated because they can’t “control” things. They believe leadership has too much “power” and so they perceive their role to be one of “reigning in” leadership. If they get “their way” then the pastoral staff and leadership changes. If they don’t get “their way” then they leave. Typically, most members of the congregation who view things in this adversarial type of relationship of long-time members but who really have very little spiritual depth in their lives. They have probably been on church leadership boards for years, not because they are spiritually qualified, but because they have the stamp of longevity within a particular congregation so that years of service = power!
As far as trying to get this type of person to come back - forget it, unless they truly submit to leadership and are willing to truly be in unity and support the mission and vision of the church. Lovingly, yes, lovingly, release them and certainly acknowledge that they are leaving, but don’t encourage them to stay.
Sometimes the Lord adds by subtracting.
Consider the source. From what I hear, the SDA church is very legalistic (lack of understanding and application of grace). It could be a very good thing to leave such a system, if that’s their problem. Hopefully the person doesn’t leave, turned-off by legalism, but finds true faith in Christ and true peace somewhere else.
...Bernie
http://www.freegoodnews.com
PS: New book by a former SDA:
“Exposing Seventh-day Adventism”
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0595363423/qid=1126536791/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/002-2096437-6628803?v=glance&s=books
I think the reasons go a little deeper than either the post or the first comment reveal. As a leaver myself, I can relate to the research Alan Jaimieson has put forward on this matter (he’s a pastor from New Zealand who did his doctorate in sociology on the subject). There’s a good article in the link below, and more if you search for his name on the site. Jaimieson’s thesis was published in book form—I think it’s called “Churchless Faith.”
http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/32/32-jamieson.asp
You know, I prefaced that the article was by a seventh-day adventist because I knew that someone wouldn’t be able to look beyond that label to see the value of the lists he created.
People leave churches of all kinds for these reasons… and I think they are valuable to think about and ponder; and even to make changes because of.
What I didn’t want, (but expected), was links about the debunking of seventh-day adventism.
Todd
It’s too bad that the LABEL is what determines truth for you, Bernie.
From my experience, this list is applicable to ALL traditions.
The article didn’t say, “well, SDAs aren’t very good Christians to begin with, now are they.” The article actually said that all churches tend to lack something desperately needed by today’s lost and today’s believers.
I agree with Monica and Todd. There are aspects of social analysis that simply have to do with people in congregational settings that are irrespective of theological differences. Let’s recall, before we each became a “category,” we were people first with common human traits. Personally, I would like to think that such is still the case.
Ken
People leave churches primarily because they are carnal and unwilling to submit to the Lordship of Christ. They are “jezebels” who want to control and when they don’t get their way they look for easier prey (other churches and pastors).
I am so sick of this whiny “I got hurt by the church/pastor/other Christians” nonsense. Grow up saints! Keep your eyes on Jesus and you won’t have to church-hop all the time.
Art,
Your blanket condemnation of people who leave churches is breathtaking. Hopefully, keeping one’s eye on Jesus, as you rightfully recommend, doesn’t necessarily mean that we develop an evil eye against others.
Ken
Todd, you rock, you always seem to be one step ahead of the comments. Some day I hope to meet you in person.
In a perfect world everybody would be like Bernie.
That’s it Art always blame the person for leaving the church, I believe that was one of the points that the church is leaving them. “if they wasn’t so carnal or if they would grow up”, really what you really wanted to say is “if they would submit to the pastor”.
Yikes, Art!
Have we completely removed the possibility that people leave churches because God has gifted them in a way that another church needs?
What about the possibility that the status quo is intolerable and no effort, great or small, will knock sense into some congregations?
Or, believe it or not, God said “go” and they did.
Not all “church leavers” (as this group has dubbed them) are leaving to tick off the church or to whine because they didn’t get their way. Sometimes, when membership means “I support what’s going on and join myself with you,” people cannot (in good conscience) stay.
There actually ARE people on the planet who understand that “it’s not about them”.
It’s really difficult to have a serious discussion about this, isn’t it?
Maybe that’s one reason why so many older saints who are firm in their faith and are experienced in leadership are leaving the church.
Dear Art--
Please pull your head out of...the sand.
Signed,
OlderSaintFirmInMyFaithExperiencedInLeadership/WhinyIGotHurtBytheChurch/
Pastor/OtherChristiansNonsenseGuy
We left because God opened our eyes to the truth of His grace and we could no longer subject ourselves to galationistic teaching and leading.
I have been studying this topic for a term paper and I have been floored by the lack of research and data on this subject. Alan Jaimieson found in some of his research that the average time a leaver spent in church, before they left was 15.8 years (see the link above). In what research I have found almost no one had their pastor or another church leader contact them to find out why they had stopped coming.
The warning signs are great, but how many pastors really pay that much attention? And if we are not paying attention can we really say we love them? I think that this is a fundamental issue the church needs to do much soul searching about. It is too easy to blame those who leave.
Are we talking about people who leave church altogether or simply leave one particular church? I understand a certain amount of “church hopping” when a church becomes stagnant. It’s those who leave church altogether that I can’t quite get.
Does the church really leave a person? The original four from the post are: 1) personal conflict—hardly the church leaving; 2) and 3) disinterest or avoidance due to failures as well as 4) unmet needs—is the church leaving or is the person withdrawing or not letting anyone know about the situation? It’s real easy to blame the church, especially if there is no follow-up, but most of these people (in my experience) don’t want anything to do with the pastor once their mind is made up. Sometimes the lost don’t want to be found.
Jeff VonVanderen has an excellent book out on spiritual abuse. It helps people identify abusive situations and will inform people if it’s a me or them situation. It is written in love for both the abused and the abusers It’s well worth the read!
I’m sure there’s plenty of blame to go around when it comes to people leaving the church, and I think that both leavers and churches need to examine themselves. Jaimieson’s research shows this to be something more, though—it’s widespread enough to be termed a social phenomenon, and there is more at work here than can be accounted for solely by abusing, heartless churches or backsliding, whining parishioners. Some churches, perhaps even those that seem most healthy, have become revolving doors: their growth rate would be astronomical if it weren’t for the mature lay leaders leaving. I really found a lot I could relate to in Jaimieson. I may be a sheep that has gone astray, but I’m by no means alone. This is an issue that deserves some serious, deep thought and prayer; platitudes and denial won’t help. Things are changing.
I would agree that things are changing,With so many diverse interpetations of the bible coming forth we need more than ever to read the Word of God and discern the spirits which have gone forth into the world. I don’t think I am alone in saying ,"Will the real chuch please stand up?”
Maybe, just maybe, people are tired of being treated like children. They reach a point where they begin to truly grow up. Leaving the situation where they are treated as such is sign of good mental HEALTH! Certainly Jesus had expectations of maturity in his people-- contrast that to the expectations most churches seem to have of their people. Mature Christians are tired of the treatment and after trying and trying to help and be a positive influence for change (so that they may fully invest themselves in the church), their efforts do not mean much, unless they are politically powerful. Then when they do go elsewhere, chances are more than excellent that they are not ever contacted by their former church. Where’s the family of Christ?
I have not done research, but it appears that asking someone why the left a church would help you understand.
Some people leave a church because they move, or God calls them to serve in a different church to be a pastor or some other level of work. I think we would all agree that is okay.
Some leave because they believe the church is going in a wrong direction. The assumption by pastors is that these people just want to control things and stifle what God wants done. Some of the laity wonder if the Pastor or leadership team is always right though.
I would suggest to anyone leaving a church to ask themselves soem questions.
1. Are we leaving because we got our feeling hurt? Did we talk to the person that hurt our feelings about the situation?
2. Are we leaving because we believe the church or a staff meember is violating God’s word? Have we talked to the person about it? Have we then asked for an unbiased witness to judge? If we have done all that have we taken it before the whole congregation at one time to listen to both sides(not gossip one or two at a time)?
3. Supposing it is not a violation of God’s Word, but a preference issues, have we prayed that God turn our hearts , thiers and ours, toward God and each other? If it is still difficult for us to function in that local body becasue of preferences, then inform the Pastor that you think it is best that you go somewhere that is closer to your preference(not with intention of blackmailing them but to inform).
Once you have biblically tried to resolve the conflict and the staff is still vilating God’s Word, or you believe that your preferences mean so much to you that you will not do without them, then leave the church. Go by yourself, go without backbiting, gossiping, etc..
Now church leadership could ask themselves some questions to?
1. Have I contacted those who left to try and discern why?
2. Am I willing to listen with an open heart and mind, with gentleness and self control?
3. Will I pray about what is discussed?
4. Will I apologize for any wrong doing by myself or staff?
5. Is it possible that God is able to use lay people to speak to me? Or am I the sole conduit of God’s knowledge in the local church?
6. Is it possible that I have a vision for the church that is more driven by my personality than what God is telling me?
7. Am I so concerend with building the church that I resent anyone who points out an obstacle? Would it be better to add people to my team that sees obstacles so they can be addressed early instead of later?
8. Since God commanded all believers to submit to authority, and I am authority then they must submit to me right? I can use that to control them from doing things I do not personally like, reguardless of the biblical basis, right?
9. If you are so big on the congregation obeying your authority, are you obeying God’s commands? Are you sharing the gospel to unbelievers on a regular basis? Do love God with all your heart, soul, midn, and strength?
10. Are you a leader or a pusher? A leader, leads. They are in the front setting the example, a pushers stands behind and pushes things and sometimes can not even see where they are going.
We are experiencing an exodus in our church as we speak. Actually - some need to leave. They are so full of poison that they are infecting others.
As a staff person who has returned to their home church to serve on staff, I have tried to reach out and let people know that I noticed their leaving. The conversations with them have been very, very discouraging. Offenses, bitterness, rage, gossip, flat out lies, distrust of leadership that goes well beyond the current pastor. I’m not just a casual observer. I’ve known many of these people literally ALL my life (I’m approaching 50!) and the ones causing the dissention are for the most part either complete spiritual babies - they’ve carried their Bible around for years, but never really studied it or applied it to their lives - or Pharisees - they know LOTS of the word, but they wield the Sword as a weapon against other believers instead of using it to teach, correct and rebuke IN LOVE.
I LOVE my church. I could be one of those who want power and control and God reminds me of that every day. I so desperately want to see the church of Jesus Christ walk in love, but I’m reminded of the fact that Jesus said in the last days the love of many would grow cold. There are definitely frozen spots in our church right now. I’m praying for a fresh wind of the Holy Spirit to come and thaw even the coldest of hearts - mine included.
I recently left a position in the church because of the overwhelming notion that “huge” was better than healthy. Pastors are falling into the trap that numbers are more important than the spiritual growth of their congregants. The Purpose Driven Model has turned many churches/pastors into mini Saddlebacks and I believe people in these churches are asking the question, “who are we following...God or Saddleback?”
I think churches/pastors need to be careful with this mindset. While adopting a certain model for church planning is important...it is also crucial for the members/attenders of the church to feel a sense of ownership and trust within their church.
So i propose this question, “is the church/pastor taking care of their own flock?...is there a genuine concern by the pastor and the leadership for growing the church spiritually? Or has the image of “bigger and better” become the forefront of the church?
You see...the bigger the church gets (without adequate leadership and discipleship)I believe the easier it is for people to leave. Not because they don’t love the church but because they feel more like a number than a name. Bigger often leads to “Bitter” not better. Peace.
I have pastored two churches. One for two years and one for 10. Both were small. In both people left for the four reasons mentioned. As a pastor, I always felt it was my duty to seek the persons out based on Jesus’ instruction that if you brother has something against you, leave your gift at the altar and seek him out. I am the shepherd of the flock and an example. So I must model reconciliation and discipline for the flock.
You know, I’ve been hearing the “mini-Saddle Back” accusation thrown around for years now. Honestly - I don’t see it. I really don’t. At least not here and we’ve been labled everything from New Age to Mega Church (whatever that means in a town of 6000). Because a church starts growing that’s a bad thing? I thought that maybe if people were getting saved and baptized, the church would naturally grow. Hmmm.
One recent converstation I had with a congregation member who was in the process of deciding whether to stay or go said it all. “This church is just not geared toward me right now.”
Sometimes the PEOPLE start a church only to have a religious leader come and take it away from them. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus...the author and finisher of our faith. I don’t have to answer to any person but Jesus and He says, “FOLLOW ME!” We have spent two decades and thousands of dollars into 2 church plantings only to have them kidnapped by a power hungry narcissitic leader. When we tried to “Bring them Back Alive” (title of a book), the minister was so threatened that he had secret meetings, wrote scathing letters, told the people to shun those who disagreed with him and threatened to resign if they didn’t kick out the man who tried to make him accountable for the lies he was telling.
II Samuel 15:14 says to flee--Sometimes the rebellion can’t be suppressed; or to avoid further destruction of the organization one helped to form; or because you love the people who don’t really know what is really going on in the background, and because you might want to return. Psalms 11:1-4 would also indicate to wisely avoid trouble. It has set us free. We thought we were doing God’s work but...He seems to be showing us that all we need is Him. I believe God is calling His people out from among the Pharisees, to shake off the dust and serve only Him with our time, finances, worship, and service.
Frightened,
Could I recommend that before planting a church that you find the pastor you want and have him involved from day one. Have him work alongside you in building the church.
It always bothers me when someone calls another a pharisse or uses the word legalism.
Just to set the record strait, Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisses becasue they wanted to keep God’s law or exhort others to do the same. His problem was they had raised thier traditons to equal and greater importance. The other problem was that they also did not keep God’s Law and instead of repenting they hid thier sins, justifed them away while condemming others.
Legalism is similar in that we create rules to help us keep God’s laws and then expect others to do the same. So if I choose not to ever ride in a car with another woman then that is oklay for me to do. But when I tell you you can not or you are sinning, then I am being legalistic.
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