fishon,

Jesus said that as we go into the world we are indeed to preach the Gospel in all times and in all seasons. Just going to a gay pride parade and preaching hellfire and damnation (which is how that would be received) ain’t it. And yes, I have looked at the places and methods Paul preached in and with.

Just because the Gospel is offensive to many does not mean we have to try to be offensive.

Jud says"I see no justification for the idea that you have to know someone as a friend to witness to them. Sure it may help but I believe God’s Word applied to someone’s Heart by the Holy Spirit is what convicts not the righteousness I may or may not display in front of them.”

Jesus says Mat 5:13-16 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.  “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.  Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.”

Let your LIGHT shine so that those in darkness may see your good works and through your good works will they give glory to God in Heaven. Don’t preach to me, or at me. Show me. Your words mean nothing. How you live means everything.

One of the reasons Evangelicals show little progress in reaching the lost (let’s face it a lot of our growth is transfer growth) is because we see no connection between what we say and how we live. All that matters is spitting out “thus saith the Lord”

When we are ready to kiss the leper like Francis then maybe we’ll get a hearing. If not our words are empty.

Bruce,
YOU:Don’t preach to me, or at me. Show me. Your words mean nothing. How you live means everything.
-----I do believe it was WORDS that got Steven stoned. It was words that got all the apostles marytered. It was NOT living the gospel out that got 2 pastor from Turkey and 1 from German tortured for hours and killed a year, Easter. It is the combination of being the light and sharing the word that that is important. It still says, “Faith comes by hearing....”

And I am sorry, my friend, but living the best life possible will not get you a hearing by most gays. The first time they ask you ‘THE QUESTION,’ they will spit on your life.
fishon

Fishon,
forgive me if this comes across wrong but you seem a bit defensive.  I apologize for leading you to believe that I put words in your mouth.  I was actually referring to both the Fred Phelps references and the comment you made 2 times about a gay pride parade.  I am sure protesting was the wrong word.  However you did not really deal with what I said, you simply pointed out my misplacement of words. 

There are so many poeple right now who are trapped in a lifestyle of homosexuality who would never parade themselves and have not even found themselves able to come out.  We could find ways to minister to them.  There are so many teens experimenting with homosexuality right now, we could minister to them. 

The point of the article was we do not HATE OUR SIN.  We are still to love our enemies, we can show kindness in the face of hate.  We can use common sense in entering discussions.  We can season our words with salt.  We can offer grace to meet real needs.  We can quit being afraid or repulsed.  We can show love through gentleness.
We can discuss (I have done it) why God wrote what he wrote.  There are a ton of options for us in ministering to homosexuals.  Peter nor myself suggest withholding the truth.  However I think Dr. hunt is right.  We should start ith HATING OUR OWN SIN.

Fishon

You and I are two ships passing in the night.

Thank you for the discussion.

Bruce

It is amazing to me how people in the church will sacrifice other people in the church for the credit / favor of a demographic that has quickly become the poster child of unjustified tolerance.

It’s simple really, as fishon has stated just because you preach against sin does not mean you are screaming… though it will sound that way to convicted souls.

If nothing else offer us fundamentalists a little bit of the kindness you offer the World.

fishon writes [However, I believe that the vast majority of pastors who preach against practicing homosexuality do that (hate their own sin)] I respectfully disagree, based on my own limited experience.

Jud writes [It is amazing to me how people in the church will sacrifice other people in the church for the credit / favor of a demographic that has quickly become the poster child of unjustified tolerance.] It is amazing to me how many people in the church (I’m not necessarily saying this is you) have put a certain sin (homosexual behavior) that is mentioned only in passing by Paul and never once directly by Christ and put it at the top of a list of the worst sins… when it seems that greed and religious pride are much more serious affairs to both of them.

The problem I have is that far too many start with condemning this certain sin. I take as my model for encountering someone with sexual sin obvious in their life Jesus in chapter 4 of John. He does not START with condemnation of sin in that exchange (although after starting the exchange he does not hide what is right and wrong), but rather starts with the promise of hope.

I start with the promise of hope.

Jud,

Did ya even read my whole post, including what I put in parentheses? I think maybe not.

Jud,
From the original post Todd posted the instruction was for us to hate OUR own sin and love the homosexual.  The article then said lets give a loving and biblical response that homosexuality is sin. 

From your first point till now you still have not interacted with what Dr. Hunt actually said.  Instead you launched this thread down a path it doesn’t need to be on.  On your first post you missed the point Dr. hunt was making and stated a tirade about alcoholics having parades and us being nicer to them and not bending the gospel… Not the point of the post.  (not what anyone here suggests either)

Then your next post misses again the point of the post… hating OUR own sin.  Your third post completely misses the point of the post… Hating OUR own sin.  Your fourth post just takes a shot at McLaren.  Again the fifth post misses again.  Your sixth amen’s fishon for missing the point.  Your seventh misses again and in fact has absolutely nothing to do with the post.  Number 8 post misses once again the point.  Number 9 and number 10 equally miss the point. 

Jud we have 41 comments from you and none of them are about the original point of the article or why Todd posted it, are you trying to hijack a thread with your agenda?

This does not even include the unbiblical things and erroneous comments you made.

it is not my disagreement with you or my agreement with you that makes you off topic but the fact you are off topic. 

As for unbiblical things you said… click my name I’ll send you an email.  I don’t want to be way off topic.

As for the topic.  the sin of indifference is huge.  The reality that few Christians do anything with hiv or aids today is indifferent.  The reality is that most Christians today have little to no response to a homosexual other that that is a sin and a really bad sin is indifference.  The reality that there are countess numbers of people being seduced into a life style for no other reason that a loving and clear voice is missing from their lives is indifference. 

When we stand before God someday and he says, hey what did you do about that homosexuality issue and we say, we told them it was wrong and argued with other christians about it.  I think he will be happy with that.

What about the kid whose dad just announced he was gay and now he is trying to figure out how to deal with that or the parent whose son just announced he was gay and is struggling to deal with that.  How will this conversation help that guy.  The point Dr. hunt was making is that we are woefully unprepared and we are woefully unrepentant over our own sin, possibly the sin of indifference and pride. 

Jud, you came in here assuming the worst about what we think and castigating homosexuals from the first comment.  That my friend is why you are off point.  The fact you cannot see that is sad.

Jud, Your first comment was “Maybe when Alcoholics start doing parades and taking over Disney World for a week the Church will realize it needs to be more sensitive to them too!” This comment has nothing to do with the topic.  It is castigating which means to criticize someone’s behavior.  You assume as well that here at MMI we want to bend the gospel.  This is not just from your comment on this thread but in the tone of many of your comments since you have been around MMI. 

I never said you personally were indifferent to homosexuals.  I do not know if you are or are not.  I did say the church was.

I never said you do not care about HIV or AIDS.  I do not know if you are or not.  I did say the church doesn’t. 

I said it based upon observation.  Very few churches I know of do anything for HIV, for rescuing kids being seduced into a lifestyle of homosexuality, for caring for families who have members who have announced they are gay… Not because of BONO or even because of some poll.  I do not really care about being popular with our culture.

As for the unbiblical things, like I said-email me and I will interact.  I don’t want to take this thread off target.  Again, the fact you cannot see that is sad. 

The tone from the start with both you and fishon has actually shut down what could have been a great conversation about not hating our own sin within the church and how that gets in the way of engaging homosexuals with truth and grace.  It shut down a potential conversation about how the church does work and how it could rescue people from sin.  Instead we have to entertain accusations that we want to “bend the gospel” and how truth makes us enemies.  Both of which were not on point.  Then to respond with such huge defensiveness as though every word was about you.  If this were the first time this kind of discussion degenerated because of you I’d say…hey no biggie.  But it happens nearly every time.  Kind of exhausting.  I am done, if you want to engage further you can e-mail me.