Why Great Men Fall:  An Interview with Dr. Wayde Goodall

Orginally published on Monday, November 13, 2006 at 5:10 AM
by Todd Rhoades

We’re going on two weeks now since the Ted Haggard scandal broke out, and the evangelical world is still buzzing about it. How could something like this happen? How can someone so dedicated to the cause of Christ be living a secret life? And many pastors are asking, “Even though I don’t think it could happen to me, how do I safeguard myself from ever ending up in the same situation?” This week, I had the chance to interview Dr. Wayde Goodall. Dr. Goodall is himself a pastor, and has much experience in dealing with fallen pastors and leaders. He has recently written the book: “Why Great Men Fall”. I think his word will help us all to deal with our feelings on this subject right now...

Todd: There are many pastors who are really devastated over the recent events regarding Ted Haggard.  You’ve actually looked at a lot of similar cases, and wrote a book on the subject.  What common things have you found to be a part of a leader’s life that could be warning signs to avoid a fall like Ted’s?

Dr. Goodall: All leaders lives are busy, complicated, and if we are not careful … can become exhausting.  In the business of the good we are trying to do, we can neglect paying attention to our personal struggles, family, marriage … and can be an easier target for the enemy.  When our energy is depleted, we tend to rationalize that we need to do one more thing and so, at times, the strength that is necessary to fight temptation, discouragement, and wrong behavior isn’t what we need it to be. 

It is not uncommon for the newspaper to inform us of a leader that has been caught in a behavior that is illegal or immoral.  This news often surprises us and causes us to ask the question; “Why did they give up so much for so little?” When a church leader falls in similar types of behavior, we are shocked and people can ask; “How can this happen to a spiritual leader?” In my book, I list 15 areas that leaders need to be aware of. For example, people can compartmentalize by doing good at one moment and something very wrong the next. Or we can develop a sense of entitlement where we think we can do something because of who we are.  There are many who not only don’t want accountability, but they also will not give permission to those around them to talk to them if they see or sense something inappropriate. These and other pitfalls exist in our lives daily.  We shouldn’t be paranoid to be a leader because of this, we should just realize that everyone has areas in their lives that they need to discipline and let the Lord help them with. 

I also feel that many times we can think that because of our strength, abilities, and experience that we can do this on our own.  We must never get away from the fact that we are in the Body of Christ and we need each other.  Peter thought that he would never deny the Lord; Paul was in a struggle where he despaired of his life (2 Cor. 1); Elijah was so depressed that he wanted to die; Jonah ran from the will of God.  These great leaders had great struggles and needed the help from men, angels, and God’s power to overcome their time of trial.  Accountability, prayer for one another, and a daily acknowledgement that we desperately need God’s help are all ways we can protect our lives. 

Todd: It seems that we are hearing stories more and more about pastors falling.  Do you see this as an increasing problem?  Do you see an increasing number of pastors and church leaders that are falling into moral sin, or are we just now (with the internet) hearing more about this?

Dr. Goodall: Sin has always been a problem in every human life.  There is an enemy out there that hates the Church and church leaders.  Pastors and church leaders are not unlike any other Christian that daily has to deal with the sin nature, wrong thinking, and behavior.  However, when a pastor falls the exposure is much larger because they are in front of the community.  The media can pick it up, and the rumor mill can become huge.  Because of this, the impression can be that more pastors are falling. 

We know that because of the internet, we have more information and more ability to hide in the corner of our home and look at what ever we want.  Someone said that cyberporn has become the 21st century sex toy.  No doubt, that without discipline and caution, anyone can begin using this vehicle to look at or read something that is inappropriate.

Another way I look at this is that most pastors do not feel they have an avenue to discuss their temptation, depression, or marriage problem.  I was part of the Duke think tank called Pulpit in Pew (2004).  We discovered that pastors of all denominations do not feel they can discuss their moral, emotional, or marital challenges with their denominational officials or find the help they need to overcome their difficulty.  The reasons cited for this fear being:  they likely could be labeled, removed from their career, or not have future opportunities for ministry employment.  When a pastor has to repress his emotional or moral concern, then the problem will likely only become worse. 

We need to find new ways to give permission for our pastors to talk, get help, and do what ever it takes to overcome their challenge.  All of us need people in our lives that can ask us the hard questions without labeling us.  Where do we go when we are in trouble, our marriage is breaking up, or we are involved in wrong behavior?  Who can we be close enough to that we can discuss the temptation that has been rolling over and over in our heads for weeks? Pastors need to have the ability to receive preventative help, before they stumble or fall.  This occupation is unique in that it involves leading in the kingdom of God.  The enemy has his evil kingdom that opposes everything God blesses.  This especially is true for the spiritual leaders.  Congregations ought to pray more for their pastor than ever before and give them permission to get help – and rest, when ever needed.  Denominational offices have the ability to develop programs, counseling lines, and restoration vehicles that will assist their leaders. 

Todd: As an attendee of New Life, this has to have hit you very hard personally.  Has what happened with your pastor changed your perspective at all on any of your thoughts on this subject? 

Dr. Goodall: For days I went through depressive emotions, and grief.  I love Ted and Gayle Haggard … and their children (whom I do not know).  Ted and Gayle led with excellence and he is my brother in Christ.  My grief is for him, his family, the church, and for those young in the Lord that will go through a time of disillusionment.  However, the church is a strong church, with mature elders and pastors.  They have been upfront with the media, haven’t tried to hide anything and in fact have tried to provide as much information as is possible.  The worship in the services and the presence of God has been strong.  Though I will miss Ted as my pastor, I know that God will provide another leader with unique abilities to lead New Life (Acts 20:28). 

My perspective or thoughts are no different than before this tragic news.  My determination to love and pray and help pastors has only grown.  Throughout my Christian life I’ve been grateful for the fact that the Bible tells real life stories of failure and restoration; sin and forgiveness; weakness and strength.  Like anyone else, I have needed all of this and understand that we daily need a savior. 

Todd: Do you find that most ‘falls’ come from a one-time or spontaneous sin; or are they the result of a long time, even life-time struggle?

Dr. Goodall:  “Yes” … a failure can come from all the above, however, in most cases there is a thought process or an issue, weakness or temptation that simply has not been dealt with.  James 1:13-15 gives the pattern of the thought turning into action and the end result of “death” (career ending, marriage, or worse).  Ministers and their families have issues … like anyone else.  The difference is many times with “whom” can the minister or spouse talk to … trust, and know that they will get the help that they need.  Or … there could be arrogance involved, an inflated ego that says; “I’m a man (or woman) of God and I’m not going to seek help from anyone.” All of us need help from time to time.  This particular issue that the church world is facing today ought to be a wake up call and remind us that we never really know how much a fellow minister is suffering or being tempted … unless somehow we give them permission to talk with us about their struggles.  Before they can do that, they need to trust us and be assured that we will do all we can to help them. 

Todd: There are those reading this right now that would find them selves in a similar situation as Ted Haggard if only their secret sin was revealed.  What suggestions would you give to a church leader who is involved in some type of unknown moral failure (an affair, financial impropriety, pornography) that just hasn’t been revealed yet?

Dr. Woodall: Please get the help that you need.  There are people out there that can help or can find the help that you need.  The Pastors.com network and the pastoral counselors at Focus on the Family with H.B. London are just two sources that will assist you.  Hanging on to the problem and letting it get worse will only bring greater danger, stress, and pain to your life.  Also, those of us that are involved in leadership need to determine that we will be transparent, vulnerable, and trustworthy with our peers.  Sincerely being caring to our friends in ministry and knowing when something needs to be addressed and doing it should be a priority.  And in turn, when we find that a peer in ministry is struggling, we do everything we can in terms of time, energy, and finances to get them the help they need.

Todd:  What other things would you like to say to pastors about this whole issue?  I’d love to hear your insight!

Dr. Goodall: We are perhaps living in one of the most exciting times for the Church.  Where sin abounds … grace is even stronger.  People are looking for leaders that demonstrate the life of Christ and we are in a unique place where we can do that every week.  As we are servant leaders, we can understand why people would be cynical toward the Church and as a result determine to show them authentic Christ-likeness.  Also, admitting that we have struggles and that we need to depend on His strength one day at a time helps our people to know that we too have feet of clay. However, we can say; “Follow me, as I follow Christ and find victory.”

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Hi... I'm Todd Rhoades. I'm a Christ-follower, husband, father and I love to connect leaders with other leaders. Hopefully you'll find something here at MMI you like and will return often. If you want, you can find out more about me or follow my every step on Twitter.

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