CS: [Time Magazine and other sources reported that Willow Creek went door-to-door and asked people what they wanted by survey, and delivered that to them. From the evidence provided, they did not go door-to-door, preaching the Gospel, causing God to convict people of their sins, (which you agree is the way people get saved,) which then made them want to go to church in the end. Instead, they went out, got ideas, changed the church to what the unsaved wanted, in an effort to bring them in. That’s not Godly seeking. That’s also not the purpose of church.]

So what? You have no way to make a case that this method is outside the biblical purpose of the church?  There is no passage where we can find the definitive and normative method(s) for reaching people and making disciples.  never outlined the “right” method.  What this Willow method assumes is that in going door-to-door they will stumble upon people who are struggling with some wrong way of filling the void Leonard wrote about.  Instead of pounding the stranger with a 4 point gospel presentation while standing in a stranger’s doorway, they invite them to church where they can begin a relationship AND communicate the message – that IS the purpose of any church I want to be a part of.  Patrick evangelized thousands in the 3rd and 4th century in Ireland using this exact method, he invited seeking pagans into the community where they came to belong AND THEN came to believe.

You make my point by citing McArthur and Cameron and Ingrid as the people you learn from on MMI.  You are here for the purpose of arguing against the innovative people Todd brings us, defending the people you cite above. Sometimes you are polite, often, like your mean-spirited comments about Willow here, your comments are disrespectful and uncalled for.  Generally, you shut down lively and positive discussion with your hyper-Calvinistic attempts to make this theological a debate.  Haven’t you noticed that whenever you jump in and begin crying heretic, pointing out how “unbiblical” is the person featured in Todd’s post, or even questioning whether the person is a Christian . . . most of the posters simply check out?  Only a few of us are gluttons for punishment. 

I implore you to be respectful CS.  You don’t find MMI posters over at Slice or other watchdog cites relentlessly trying to change the minds of those who go there because they resonate with Ingrid’s views.  Please show us the same respect. 

Like Leonard, I’m checking out of this ridiculous and very unproductive argument.

Wendi

CS - you continually bring up the idea that no one seeks God.  In one post you actually broadened that a bit by including that no one seeks God outside of the Holy Spirit helping them.

I think I’ve pointed out on this forum before that it is true no one seeks God - on their own accord.  But when the Holy Spirit begins to work, they become seekers.

I think one of the problems here is that you seem to think that once the Holy Spirit begins that work, that they automatically understand everything regarding salvation.

However, that is simply not the case.  I grew up Catholic, and God started wooing me to Himself while I was in high school.  It wasn’t until I was in college that I understood enough to respond to God’s message.

I was a seeker for those intervening years.  And because others were able to communicate to me in a way I understood, the Holy Spirit brought me to Christ.  I didn’t understand my need until the Holy Spirit used godly men who cared more for me than they did for correct terminology (I don’t think I even heard the terms “born-again,” “saved,” or “redeemed” during that period).

This may not fit your model.  But I think it fits Scripture, particularly as the Holy Spirit works in the way Wendi (?) mentioned with the Scripture passages she mentioned.

One a related note, I have to join the chorus here in mentioning the overwhelming negativity of your posts.  As soon as I saw this article posted yesterday, my first thought was literally, “I’ll bet CS will have something to say about this...”

Your presence on this forum is characterized by negativity.  If a person were to describe you solely by the posts on this forum, few positives would come up.  I will say that there is no question that you love Christ and are passionate about following Him.  However, it seems that unless someone follows your prescription about everything, then they are wrong, and their salvation is suspect.

My heart breaks for you.  I mean that sincerely.

Brian L.

Maybe I should add a postscript to my previous comment, as both encouragement and warning to all of us who claim to love God and his Word: Jesus said, “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Unfortunately, far too often that verse could accurately be restated: “By this all men know that you are Christians: you argue with each other.” What is the impact of that on an unbelieving world that watches, listens, reads...?  What damage is done to God’s name and to his glory by our unceasing bickering? 

There are times and places for theological arguments, debates about orthodoxy and orthopraxy...but there are also times for silence, times to intentionally not answer questions.  There is a time to just shut up.  May we use all those times wisely.

Good word Randy, thanks for the reminder and I also apologize if my words have caused harm or my attitude has communicated something other that does not honor God.

I agree with the others who have affirmed your good words Randy. I’m convicted because you help me realize how easy it is to justify my participation in infighting when I persuade myself that someone else started the fight.  The outsider looking in neither knows nor cares who starts the fight.  I apologize for my complicity. 

Wendi

I have written this before on this website, so pardon me if it seems unnecessary.  I must admit that I become particularly grieved when I read the rather simplistic criticisms that people have of Willow.  I attended Willow for 9 years beginning in 1994 and ended up working for the Willow Creek Association for a little more than 3 years.  When I began attending I was in the process of going through a divorce that effectively ended a ten-year career of Bible College teaching.  I was a wreck, more of a wreck than I even realized at the time.  I have called myself a ‘seeking believer’ at the time because I desperately needed to find a church that would allow me and enable me to heal.  I had a hard time finding that place, even in the Chicago area.  Willow became that place. And God provided me with the means to grow through that ‘seeker-sensitive’ church. I remarried in 2003 and now I am the pastor of a recent church plant.  God has mightily used Willow in the lives of litereally thousands of folks like myself, even though, amazingly, it doesn’t fit the mold of what I even at one time thought church was supposed to be. May God continue to bless Willow!